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you're listening to fade to black with

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your host jimmy church on the dark

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matter radio network

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don't run and hide don't be afraid

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don't turn away any longer

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the truth will set you free

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and now your host the captain of

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conspiracy the prince of paranormal

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this ain't your daddy's radio network

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show

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this is jimmy church fade to black

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all right

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hey now

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let's go

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today is wednesday march 12th we are 70

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as always live from the jp motorsports

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studios right here in burbank california

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for kjcr and the dark matter radio

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that's right

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we are live

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let's get this show cracking

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got a lot to do you gotta love freedom

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of speech

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that's what this show is about i love

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very proud to be an american today

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singer james taylor is 66 years old

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i've just got one thing to say about

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james love him

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but man everybody has got somebody that

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has broken their heart

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to write all those songs he has his

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but it was a string of hits wasn't it

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love james

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66 years old today

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our dead guy birthday today is poet and

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author jack kerouac

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born in

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1922. now crazy crazy little fact

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if you didn't know this about jack

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he was discharged from the navy after

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he probably mentioned

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the first chapter he was gonna write for

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to the wrong guy but a bump

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jack kerouac

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man that that

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that guy was a trailblazer if there ever

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was one

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follow us on twitter facebook youtube

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you know what to do everything is faded

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black j church radio

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follow us on twitter at j church radio

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at j church radio

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now depending on where you are right now

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on the web you can just go over to

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jimmyturtradio.com

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there it is click on twitter click on

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facebook i think facebook takes you to

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the fan page which is great

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we update it you know probably hourly

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throughout the day

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um it's weird everything gets

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interconnected now so

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you know it gets updated on on facebook

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which goes to twitter

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automatically you update on twitter it

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automatically goes to facebook

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and so forth so depending on what you

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like to do

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go and and and follow and like there

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we got everything updated on youtube uh

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this week we are almost up to date

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everybody is still screaming about the

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second half of the uh

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of the richard dolan interview

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we just haven't had a chance it's

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sitting there it just hasn't been

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uploaded we'll get it also

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uh i did a little uh a little thing

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during that uh interview with a video

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camera i was sitting next to richard

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while everybody's seen the video so

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um i'm sitting next to richard and i

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break out a video camera and i

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videotape

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take a couple shots of the crowd but i'm

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videotaping richard

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with a handheld

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of the interview going on live and it's

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it's pretty trippy i don't know

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uh

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you know about the quality because we

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have all those studio lights and stuff

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coming back on us but uh

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uh i'm gonna get that posted that's uh

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it's pretty funny it's got a pretty

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funny ending too as well

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so uh we'll get that up there and that

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is from the second half of the show too

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by the way so it'll what's your appetite

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but it's it's a pretty funny uh

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pretty funny video okay so we'll get to

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that email us throughout the show

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tonight

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jimmy

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you know the drill the good ones get

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through to me

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here

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they do the good ones get through

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breakthrough pierce the veil

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and i'll read them on the air

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if uh

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if i respond

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and i try to i try to read all the email

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that comes in i really really do

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uh it's a lot to keep up with but

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i i do

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and if i write back

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uh wha wha what did i say last week it's

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uh jimmy church ego radio one of the

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listeners

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the this is the most unegoed

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show ever in the history of anything

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because i don't do it

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this show is all about you guys

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and never ever forget that we got a lot

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of the the world is a crazy place right

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now

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i mean it's always nutty out there

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there's always something

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crazy going on but right now

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we've got uh

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this missing plane

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the malaysian 777

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making u-turns dropping out of the sky

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being vaporized we don't know but that

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is a crazy crazy story and every day i'm

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i'm hoping

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you know wake up in the morning and

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that's been resolved you know the

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families i can't imagine what they're

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going through

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with this but then

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you know up on the web now we've got ufo

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sightings

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at the same time

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and that tie-in is is a little bit out

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there

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but you never know

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but it's crazy

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crazy so we've got that and then today

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in new york city we've got a building

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that blew up tragic

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um you know they're searching for

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survivors as we speak but

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uh and you know there's a couple of

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deaths and and that's crazy

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and when that news broke that kept me

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glued all day

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and i i just

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you know was hoping it wasn't anything

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crazy but it was a gas leak but

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nonetheless

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you know crazy and then to top it all

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off

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we've got this ukrainian

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ufo video that's blowing up all over the

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web now i have seen it

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i've seen it many times

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we'll get the link up on

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jimmychurchradio.com if you haven't seen

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it or haven't heard about it go and

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watch it i don't know what to make of it

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when

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i look at first off i'm gonna say this

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right now it doesn't look

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fake to me could be

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but it doesn't it's not like that

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jerusalem set of uh

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of four videos that popped up years ago

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over bethlehem you know it's not like

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that this is a bit different so i i feel

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pretty safe saying out of the gate that

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uh

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that's a real video

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but i don't know what to make of it

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calling it this super dreadnought

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whatever

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defensive

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offensive united states weapon i don't

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know about that

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but it is a crazy video and it is a

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large object in the sky

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i don't know what to make of it i really

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don't know what i'm looking at

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doesn't happen often and if you haven't

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seen it go check it out we'll get the

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links up uh okay so

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uh tonight

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uh we have uh

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mark bilkington and roland denning live

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from london

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and they've got a new documentary that's

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getting ready to launch it is called

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miragemen

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and the subjects of this

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video most of them we talk about on the

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show and have talked about over over the

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last couple of months

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and now a couple of things we have a

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video player up on the site

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right now you can go to

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jimmychurchradio.com the video player is

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there

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now that video player will play the

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trailer for the movie and allow you to

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pre-order

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okay the movie launches later uh later

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on this month

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in about a week

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but uh the trailer is amazing

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and

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uh

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looking at the production value and the

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way that this is being

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the way it has been done i'm very

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excited about it have i seen it

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nope

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can i watch it yep

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got my secret private link right here to

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go and and watch it i didn't want to

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watch it before this interview

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i didn't want to pollute

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uh the conversation tonight there's

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reasons for that because then i would

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have been all fired up and all excited

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and i would have done the the

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the show tonight from a different

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mindset it's not how we do it here

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watch i'll watch it

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tonight or tomorrow after the video i'll

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probably be oh man i should have watched

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it

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before the interview because i just

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learned this and this and i didn't know

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this yeah but that's not the point

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i just don't want it to pollute the

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conversation tonight i want their side

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and uh and then on tomorrow's show i'll

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tell you what i thought of the video

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okay all right

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so uh

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tomorrow night

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is mac maloney

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very excited about the show tomorrow

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night mac maloney author

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ufo guy

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uh but he's also uh you know he writes

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fiction he's got the wingman series out

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there and i'm sure that most of you have

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read it great series of books but a very

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creative mind

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and there's a lot of things to talk to

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mac about

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uh that i just wanna i want to get

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inside he's a very colorful guy i just

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want to get inside his head a little bit

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see how that works

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very creative guy

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so uh and it was it was a feat to get

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him on the show he'll be uh calling in

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live from boston

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and we pulled that one off so tomorrow

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night mac maloney friday

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that's right

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michio kaku

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and michio will be dr kaku i don't know

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if i i should call him michio

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dr kaku will be uh with us from new york

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city

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very very excited about that it's going

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to be another great week here on the

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show i want to thank everybody for

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coming in listening participating the

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forums

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i'm very proud of what we've been able

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to put together for everybody out there

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this is fade to black

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on the dark matter radio network i'm

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your host jimmy church

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it's gonna be a great show tonight stay

291
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with us

292
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don't touch that mouse

293
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and when i come back it's mark

294
00:12:07,990 --> 00:12:04,959
pilkington and roland denning

295
00:12:09,590 --> 00:12:08,000
the mirage man

296
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this is faith black and the dark matter

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00:12:28,310 --> 00:12:11,680
regular network i'll be back right after

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way out here we listen to jimmy church

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on the dark matter radio network

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you're listening to fade to black on the

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radio

302
00:13:00,790 --> 00:12:57,829
you're listening to jimmy church this is

303
00:13:05,190 --> 00:13:00,800
revolution the revolution will not be

304
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televised the revolution is on radio

305
00:13:53,030 --> 00:13:51,110
all right welcome back welcome back

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kjcr

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fade to black

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host jimmy church

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all right

310
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now i just want to remind

311
00:14:04,790 --> 00:14:02,920
everybody over on the website

312
00:14:06,710 --> 00:14:04,800
jimmychurchradio.com you can scroll down

313
00:14:08,790 --> 00:14:06,720
right now there is a gallery posted

314
00:14:11,910 --> 00:14:08,800
stills from

315
00:14:13,189 --> 00:14:11,920
the documentary mirage men

316
00:14:16,069 --> 00:14:13,199
uh we'll

317
00:14:18,389 --> 00:14:16,079
try to get those comments in on each one

318
00:14:20,949 --> 00:14:18,399
of the pics but as we do the interview

319
00:14:22,629 --> 00:14:20,959
tonight you can just scroll down and

320
00:14:24,710 --> 00:14:22,639
check out uh

321
00:14:27,150 --> 00:14:24,720
some stills from the movie

322
00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:27,160
and uh just follow along tonight okay

323
00:14:31,030 --> 00:14:29,360
jimmychurchradio.com the gallery it's

324
00:14:32,310 --> 00:14:31,040
always in the same spot for every show

325
00:14:34,310 --> 00:14:32,320
you know where it is

326
00:14:35,910 --> 00:14:34,320
just uh scroll down right there it says

327
00:14:38,069 --> 00:14:35,920
mirage men

328
00:14:39,910 --> 00:14:38,079
and uh go look at richard dodie's face

329
00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:39,920
it's it's right there

330
00:14:43,350 --> 00:14:42,000
all right let's get this going let's get

331
00:14:44,470 --> 00:14:43,360
this cracking

332
00:14:45,990 --> 00:14:44,480
cracking

333
00:14:48,389 --> 00:14:46,000
let's see how many times i can say that

334
00:14:52,150 --> 00:14:48,399
tonight

335
00:14:54,230 --> 00:14:52,160
ufos weapons of mass deception

336
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:54,240
for over 60 years teams within the u.s

337
00:14:58,310 --> 00:14:56,000
air force and intelligence services

338
00:15:01,790 --> 00:14:58,320
exploited and manipulated beliefs about

339
00:15:04,230 --> 00:15:01,800
ufos and et visitations as part of their

340
00:15:06,790 --> 00:15:04,240
counter-intelligence programs

341
00:15:09,110 --> 00:15:06,800
in doing so they spawned a mythology so

342
00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:09,120
powerful that it captivated and warped

343
00:15:12,629 --> 00:15:11,600
many brilliant minds

344
00:15:15,509 --> 00:15:12,639
including

345
00:15:16,470 --> 00:15:15,519
several of their own

346
00:15:18,790 --> 00:15:16,480
now

347
00:15:21,189 --> 00:15:18,800
for the first time some of these

348
00:15:23,910 --> 00:15:21,199
behind the operations and their victims

349
00:15:27,189 --> 00:15:23,920
speak out revealing a true story that is

350
00:15:30,550 --> 00:15:27,199
part manchurian candidate and part close

351
00:15:32,150 --> 00:15:30,560
encounters of the third kind

352
00:15:35,110 --> 00:15:32,160
mark pilkington

353
00:15:38,150 --> 00:15:35,120
is the author of two books mirage men

354
00:15:40,870 --> 00:15:38,160
and far out 101 strange tales from

355
00:15:42,550 --> 00:15:40,880
science's outer edge called from a

356
00:15:43,670 --> 00:15:42,560
column that ran in the guardian

357
00:15:45,110 --> 00:15:43,680
newspaper

358
00:15:47,509 --> 00:15:45,120
mark has written for numerous

359
00:15:50,069 --> 00:15:47,519
anthologies magazines and websites and

360
00:15:51,430 --> 00:15:50,079
is a regular speaker at salons festivals

361
00:15:54,310 --> 00:15:51,440
and conferences

362
00:15:56,949 --> 00:15:54,320
mark also runs strange attractor press

363
00:15:59,509 --> 00:15:56,959
and is the editor of its journal

364
00:16:02,790 --> 00:15:59,519
he has been programming events

365
00:16:05,269 --> 00:16:02,800
exhibitions films and live nights since

366
00:16:07,990 --> 00:16:05,279
2001.

367
00:16:09,430 --> 00:16:08,000
roland denning is a filmmaker and writer

368
00:16:12,790 --> 00:16:09,440
based in london

369
00:16:14,710 --> 00:16:12,800
he joined the mirage men project in 2011

370
00:16:16,949 --> 00:16:14,720
and led the post-production

371
00:16:19,030 --> 00:16:16,959
his satirical novel the beach beneath

372
00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:19,040
the pavement which deals with conspiracy

373
00:16:24,310 --> 00:16:21,360
and paranoia and the post credibility

374
00:16:26,710 --> 00:16:24,320
world was published in 2011.

375
00:16:29,110 --> 00:16:26,720
his credit on mirage man is co-director

376
00:16:30,710 --> 00:16:29,120
co-editor and co-producer i would like

377
00:16:33,030 --> 00:16:30,720
to welcome to the show

378
00:16:36,389 --> 00:16:33,040
right now live from london

379
00:16:38,949 --> 00:16:36,399
mark pilkington and roland denning how

380
00:16:40,310 --> 00:16:38,959
you guys doing tonight you with us

381
00:16:42,870 --> 00:16:40,320
hi jimmy

382
00:16:43,910 --> 00:16:42,880
everything good

383
00:16:45,910 --> 00:16:43,920
now

384
00:16:47,670 --> 00:16:45,920
uh i'm just going to say really quick a

385
00:16:49,749 --> 00:16:47,680
couple of things thank you first off for

386
00:16:51,110 --> 00:16:49,759
coming on the show and i know that you

387
00:16:52,949 --> 00:16:51,120
guys are going to have a busy busy

388
00:16:54,389 --> 00:16:52,959
schedule with the launch of the film

389
00:16:56,150 --> 00:16:54,399
over the next couple of weeks i

390
00:16:57,269 --> 00:16:56,160
appreciate you guys coming on with us

391
00:16:58,310 --> 00:16:57,279
first

392
00:17:04,789 --> 00:16:58,320
and

393
00:17:08,789 --> 00:17:04,799
uh we're just gonna see where things go

394
00:17:10,549 --> 00:17:08,799
and that's uh our audience is used to me

395
00:17:12,390 --> 00:17:10,559
saying that to all of my guests but i'd

396
00:17:13,829 --> 00:17:12,400
like to get it out there first

397
00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:13,839
just to let you know i don't have an

398
00:17:19,909 --> 00:17:17,280
agenda i don't have a bunch of questions

399
00:17:22,309 --> 00:17:19,919
uh in front of me we're just gonna see

400
00:17:25,029 --> 00:17:22,319
where uh see where this goes are you

401
00:17:27,029 --> 00:17:25,039
guys ready we're ready ready

402
00:17:28,710 --> 00:17:27,039
is it uh what's the weather first off

403
00:17:31,590 --> 00:17:28,720
i'm in burbank

404
00:17:34,789 --> 00:17:31,600
uh over here uh

405
00:17:36,710 --> 00:17:34,799
another beautiful day 85 degrees

406
00:17:39,190 --> 00:17:36,720
what's it like in london right now it's

407
00:17:42,310 --> 00:17:39,200
a little bit cloudy here in camden town

408
00:17:44,630 --> 00:17:42,320
um but not too wet not too cold it's uh

409
00:17:46,630 --> 00:17:44,640
it's it's spring spring is about to

410
00:17:49,510 --> 00:17:46,640
happen here which is very exciting yeah

411
00:17:51,909 --> 00:17:49,520
after the uh biblical

412
00:17:53,669 --> 00:17:51,919
downpours we had in the last

413
00:17:56,390 --> 00:17:53,679
month or so things seem to be

414
00:18:02,070 --> 00:17:58,950
we had uh the same thing over here weird

415
00:18:04,789 --> 00:18:02,080
weather we had a a good solid week of

416
00:18:06,549 --> 00:18:04,799
rain and it was just

417
00:18:09,669 --> 00:18:06,559
and it's weird because here in

418
00:18:12,710 --> 00:18:09,679
california it just never rains and i and

419
00:18:14,789 --> 00:18:12,720
i mean that it just never rains

420
00:18:16,630 --> 00:18:14,799
i think it's advanced advertising for

421
00:18:19,270 --> 00:18:16,640
the noah film that's coming out later

422
00:18:24,710 --> 00:18:21,029
it just might be i i was going to make a

423
00:18:27,830 --> 00:18:24,720
noble reference a second ago but uh i i

424
00:18:30,630 --> 00:18:27,840
i let it go just for the interest of uh

425
00:18:31,430 --> 00:18:30,640
the the typical noaa reference

426
00:18:34,470 --> 00:18:31,440
so

427
00:18:35,510 --> 00:18:34,480
uh now let's uh let's back up i want you

428
00:18:38,470 --> 00:18:35,520
guys to

429
00:18:41,909 --> 00:18:38,480
uh do the obvious which is you know tell

430
00:18:44,789 --> 00:18:41,919
us how you met and and and got the

431
00:18:48,150 --> 00:18:44,799
project moving forward but let me start

432
00:18:51,190 --> 00:18:48,160
with mark and in the book

433
00:18:53,510 --> 00:18:51,200
and how you how how did your interests

434
00:18:56,230 --> 00:18:53,520
you know start with that was there

435
00:18:58,950 --> 00:18:56,240
anything specific in your life growing

436
00:19:01,669 --> 00:18:58,960
up did you have a an encounter were you

437
00:19:04,390 --> 00:19:01,679
abducted and you know and how did how

438
00:19:05,270 --> 00:19:04,400
did the original mirageman project kick

439
00:19:07,270 --> 00:19:05,280
off

440
00:19:08,549 --> 00:19:07,280
well if we want to go all the way back i

441
00:19:12,070 --> 00:19:08,559
mean i was

442
00:19:14,549 --> 00:19:12,080
abducted as a child by uh so science

443
00:19:17,190 --> 00:19:14,559
fiction and fantasy and

444
00:19:19,190 --> 00:19:17,200
close encounter the third kind and star

445
00:19:22,789 --> 00:19:19,200
wars and all the things that

446
00:19:24,710 --> 00:19:22,799
anyone growing up in the 1970s probably

447
00:19:28,070 --> 00:19:24,720
was exposed to

448
00:19:29,830 --> 00:19:28,080
um and i just became uh fascinated sort

449
00:19:31,029 --> 00:19:29,840
of in my

450
00:19:33,270 --> 00:19:31,039
uh

451
00:19:35,110 --> 00:19:33,280
so very early teens i think with the

452
00:19:36,950 --> 00:19:35,120
idea of ufos and

453
00:19:38,950 --> 00:19:36,960
extraterrestrial

454
00:19:41,430 --> 00:19:38,960
life maybe i was looking for

455
00:19:44,150 --> 00:19:41,440
intelligent life uh out there because i

456
00:19:46,070 --> 00:19:44,160
wasn't finding it even as a child

457
00:19:47,510 --> 00:19:46,080
here on earth um

458
00:19:49,270 --> 00:19:47,520
and uh

459
00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:49,280
yeah in my

460
00:19:56,070 --> 00:19:52,799
mid to late teens i got very very uh

461
00:19:57,669 --> 00:19:56,080
sort of deep into the ufo story so that

462
00:19:59,669 --> 00:19:57,679
would be

463
00:20:02,630 --> 00:19:59,679
late 80s i think um

464
00:20:03,669 --> 00:20:02,640
communion and above top secret were kind

465
00:20:06,549 --> 00:20:03,679
of

466
00:20:07,830 --> 00:20:06,559
partly responsible for that and over

467
00:20:10,470 --> 00:20:07,840
time

468
00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:10,480
i realized that the the stories that

469
00:20:13,990 --> 00:20:11,760
were most

470
00:20:16,630 --> 00:20:14,000
interesting to me were

471
00:20:19,590 --> 00:20:16,640
almost the meta stories rather than

472
00:20:21,110 --> 00:20:19,600
like the big question of whether

473
00:20:22,950 --> 00:20:21,120
you know we're being visited i was

474
00:20:25,510 --> 00:20:22,960
interested in the ways that these

475
00:20:27,029 --> 00:20:25,520
stories were evolving and developing how

476
00:20:30,149 --> 00:20:27,039
they were being

477
00:20:33,669 --> 00:20:30,159
uh introduced into the culture and then

478
00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:33,679
especially in the mid-90s seeing

479
00:20:38,789 --> 00:20:36,240
the mainstream popular culture get

480
00:20:39,990 --> 00:20:38,799
uh pick up on the subject that was

481
00:20:42,149 --> 00:20:40,000
particularly interesting with the

482
00:20:43,430 --> 00:20:42,159
x-files and independence day

483
00:20:45,909 --> 00:20:43,440
things like that so i just became

484
00:20:47,190 --> 00:20:45,919
interested in the way that ideas and

485
00:20:49,510 --> 00:20:47,200
uh

486
00:20:51,510 --> 00:20:49,520
the the law began to

487
00:20:53,750 --> 00:20:51,520
flow and and uh

488
00:20:57,110 --> 00:20:53,760
evolve and then um

489
00:20:59,669 --> 00:20:57,120
much later so about 10 years ago now

490
00:21:01,510 --> 00:20:59,679
my friend and our colleague

491
00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:01,520
john lumberg

492
00:21:06,149 --> 00:21:03,280
was making

493
00:21:09,510 --> 00:21:06,159
another short film and um as a result of

494
00:21:11,909 --> 00:21:09,520
that he kind of discovered the story of

495
00:21:12,870 --> 00:21:11,919
paul bennowitz and richard doty and that

496
00:21:16,630 --> 00:21:12,880
was

497
00:21:19,830 --> 00:21:16,640
the genesis of uh mirage men really now

498
00:21:21,990 --> 00:21:19,840
when when you first heard the story now

499
00:21:24,789 --> 00:21:22,000
we're going to talk about you know paul

500
00:21:27,909 --> 00:21:24,799
and and and richard and and everybody

501
00:21:30,390 --> 00:21:27,919
else that's involved in the story

502
00:21:34,789 --> 00:21:30,400
but when you first heard

503
00:21:36,710 --> 00:21:34,799
the paul benowitz dodie story

504
00:21:38,710 --> 00:21:36,720
did it hit you

505
00:21:40,950 --> 00:21:38,720
just like i mean it did with me the

506
00:21:42,549 --> 00:21:40,960
first time that i heard it it was i

507
00:21:45,590 --> 00:21:42,559
looked at it one of two ways this can't

508
00:21:48,950 --> 00:21:45,600
be real nobody would ever pull anything

509
00:21:51,590 --> 00:21:48,960
like this off on somebody else or two

510
00:21:53,430 --> 00:21:51,600
our government is really messed up you

511
00:21:55,669 --> 00:21:53,440
know and so

512
00:21:58,950 --> 00:21:55,679
did it hit you like that i mean because

513
00:22:01,830 --> 00:21:58,960
it is an absolutely fantastic tale

514
00:22:03,270 --> 00:22:01,840
it's it's an incredible and very sad

515
00:22:05,990 --> 00:22:03,280
story and i think

516
00:22:09,029 --> 00:22:06,000
it's hard to throw myself back to when i

517
00:22:11,909 --> 00:22:09,039
first encounter it but i think

518
00:22:14,549 --> 00:22:11,919
even to back in the early 90s i must

519
00:22:17,110 --> 00:22:14,559
have had a sense that this was in many

520
00:22:19,510 --> 00:22:17,120
ways the real story of the ufo

521
00:22:21,430 --> 00:22:19,520
phenomenon and uh certainly in

522
00:22:22,549 --> 00:22:21,440
in the western world

523
00:22:24,149 --> 00:22:22,559
um

524
00:22:25,510 --> 00:22:24,159
and i mean by the real story i don't

525
00:22:29,029 --> 00:22:25,520
mean that

526
00:22:32,470 --> 00:22:29,039
the story of

527
00:22:33,430 --> 00:22:32,480
uh the post-war kind of ufo as opposed

528
00:22:35,350 --> 00:22:33,440
to

529
00:22:37,270 --> 00:22:35,360
um things being

530
00:22:39,750 --> 00:22:37,280
unidentified things being seen in the

531
00:22:41,510 --> 00:22:39,760
sky which of course they have been for

532
00:22:43,270 --> 00:22:41,520
millennia um

533
00:22:45,270 --> 00:22:43,280
so again that was it was about seeing

534
00:22:46,310 --> 00:22:45,280
the way that our ideas about the things

535
00:22:48,549 --> 00:22:46,320
that we are

536
00:22:50,630 --> 00:22:48,559
seeing in the skies were

537
00:22:52,710 --> 00:22:50,640
had been developed had been

538
00:22:56,230 --> 00:22:52,720
coaxed and shaped and this was the first

539
00:22:58,710 --> 00:22:56,240
time that i think uh

540
00:23:00,070 --> 00:22:58,720
the sort of curtain was drawn and we saw

541
00:23:02,549 --> 00:23:00,080
well we saw

542
00:23:04,310 --> 00:23:02,559
one person behind the curtain i think

543
00:23:08,070 --> 00:23:04,320
everyone else had run away and

544
00:23:11,350 --> 00:23:08,080
and uh hid before before we drew it but

545
00:23:13,990 --> 00:23:11,360
well roland um yeah when you

546
00:23:16,870 --> 00:23:14,000
uh or how did you guys okay

547
00:23:19,510 --> 00:23:16,880
how did you guys get connected and you

548
00:23:21,190 --> 00:23:19,520
were well i had read mark's book which

549
00:23:23,510 --> 00:23:21,200
knocked me out in the same way that the

550
00:23:26,070 --> 00:23:23,520
paul benowitz story knocked you out and

551
00:23:27,990 --> 00:23:26,080
i was organizing an art event called the

552
00:23:30,149 --> 00:23:28,000
belief system and basically i've become

553
00:23:31,669 --> 00:23:30,159
very interested in why people believe

554
00:23:33,750 --> 00:23:31,679
what they believe

555
00:23:35,029 --> 00:23:33,760
i've written this book about the world

556
00:23:37,750 --> 00:23:35,039
where no one believes in anything

557
00:23:39,750 --> 00:23:37,760
anymore so i was fascinated by this

558
00:23:41,510 --> 00:23:39,760
state room where in one sense no one

559
00:23:43,190 --> 00:23:41,520
trusts anything the government says

560
00:23:44,950 --> 00:23:43,200
probably quite rightly and on the other

561
00:23:45,990 --> 00:23:44,960
side people will believe in a whole load

562
00:23:48,070 --> 00:23:46,000
of

563
00:23:50,230 --> 00:23:48,080
wild and wonderful things and i was

564
00:23:52,630 --> 00:23:50,240
running this seminar on reality

565
00:23:54,390 --> 00:23:52,640
management and i invited markup to speak

566
00:23:56,870 --> 00:23:54,400
to it in liverpool

567
00:23:58,710 --> 00:23:56,880
on the train coming back i said to mark

568
00:24:00,230 --> 00:23:58,720
well in the book you talk about all this

569
00:24:02,390 --> 00:24:00,240
film you shot

570
00:24:03,909 --> 00:24:02,400
uh what's happened to it he says well

571
00:24:05,430 --> 00:24:03,919
uh we still got it on the shelf do you

572
00:24:08,070 --> 00:24:05,440
want to take a look at it

573
00:24:09,669 --> 00:24:08,080
and from then on uh

574
00:24:12,149 --> 00:24:09,679
mark and john

575
00:24:13,190 --> 00:24:12,159
deposited 50 hours of rushes in my edit

576
00:24:14,950 --> 00:24:13,200
suite

577
00:24:16,390 --> 00:24:14,960
uh i worked on it for a month showed it

578
00:24:18,070 --> 00:24:16,400
to them in the next two and a half years

579
00:24:20,390 --> 00:24:18,080
with keepers kippuranu we've been

580
00:24:21,669 --> 00:24:20,400
putting the film together

581
00:24:22,390 --> 00:24:21,679
uh

582
00:24:37,669 --> 00:24:22,400
i

583
00:24:40,310 --> 00:24:37,679
documentary or

584
00:24:42,470 --> 00:24:40,320
it actually the the whole from the very

585
00:24:43,350 --> 00:24:42,480
beginning of the project the idea was

586
00:24:46,310 --> 00:24:43,360
that

587
00:24:48,549 --> 00:24:46,320
um it would be a film and a book kind of

588
00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:48,559
in parallel operating in parallel and

589
00:24:51,909 --> 00:24:50,640
they have they're quite dif that while

590
00:24:53,510 --> 00:24:51,919
they

591
00:24:55,590 --> 00:24:53,520
obviously are dealing with the same

592
00:24:57,669 --> 00:24:55,600
subject matter they're

593
00:25:00,310 --> 00:24:57,679
they're companion pieces rather than

594
00:25:01,269 --> 00:25:00,320
just sort of reflections of each other

595
00:25:02,310 --> 00:25:01,279
so

596
00:25:04,549 --> 00:25:02,320
they each

597
00:25:05,990 --> 00:25:04,559
have the book covers a much sort of

598
00:25:08,149 --> 00:25:06,000
broader

599
00:25:09,990 --> 00:25:08,159
uh spread of history and obviously has

600
00:25:11,830 --> 00:25:10,000
more opportunity to

601
00:25:14,630 --> 00:25:11,840
uh explore

602
00:25:17,029 --> 00:25:14,640
some of the older cases that i think may

603
00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:17,039
be mirage men operations and it also

604
00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:18,640
talks a lot about

605
00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:20,720
the way that we made the film and our

606
00:25:25,110 --> 00:25:22,559
relationships with

607
00:25:28,149 --> 00:25:25,120
uh rick and with other people that we

608
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:28,159
met um during the shoot so the two kind

609
00:25:34,549 --> 00:25:29,120
of

610
00:25:36,870 --> 00:25:34,559
simultaneously but say real life

611
00:25:38,870 --> 00:25:36,880
as its often does got in the way and the

612
00:25:41,110 --> 00:25:38,880
book came out um

613
00:25:44,549 --> 00:25:41,120
four years ago now and the film will be

614
00:25:45,510 --> 00:25:44,559
following uh swiftly on its heels

615
00:25:46,470 --> 00:25:45,520
um

616
00:25:47,750 --> 00:25:46,480
so

617
00:25:50,470 --> 00:25:47,760
yeah i mean

618
00:25:53,110 --> 00:25:50,480
the thing to bear in mind is we

619
00:25:55,110 --> 00:25:53,120
john and i and a very small

620
00:25:57,269 --> 00:25:55,120
team made the film

621
00:25:59,350 --> 00:25:57,279
uh shot the film absolutely

622
00:26:01,750 --> 00:25:59,360
independently

623
00:26:07,029 --> 00:26:04,470
three or four shoots mostly in america

624
00:26:08,390 --> 00:26:07,039
um with just one camera and a sound

625
00:26:11,669 --> 00:26:08,400
operator

626
00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:11,679
and um then we came back and started

627
00:26:16,950 --> 00:26:14,640
trying to edit it ourselves which proved

628
00:26:19,350 --> 00:26:16,960
sort of too complex a task and that's

629
00:26:21,029 --> 00:26:19,360
why when roland and kip

630
00:26:22,390 --> 00:26:21,039
kind of offered to

631
00:26:24,549 --> 00:26:22,400
take it to

632
00:26:25,990 --> 00:26:24,559
take it over from us and

633
00:26:27,990 --> 00:26:26,000
it was a just

634
00:26:29,110 --> 00:26:28,000
wonderful opportunity and and

635
00:26:31,990 --> 00:26:29,120
they are

636
00:26:36,149 --> 00:26:32,000
absolutely uh co-creators of of the

637
00:26:38,390 --> 00:26:36,159
finnish film out of the original uh

638
00:26:41,110 --> 00:26:38,400
uh i don't know who

639
00:26:43,590 --> 00:26:41,120
who play who did you get

640
00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:43,600
who was captured on film who plays

641
00:26:47,029 --> 00:26:45,200
themself

642
00:26:49,830 --> 00:26:47,039
uh everybody's

643
00:26:52,470 --> 00:26:49,840
we've got i mean

644
00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:52,480
for us um things kind of turned inside

645
00:26:56,070 --> 00:26:54,960
out a little bit for us because

646
00:26:57,990 --> 00:26:56,080
um

647
00:26:59,990 --> 00:26:58,000
when we initially began talking about

648
00:27:02,950 --> 00:27:00,000
the film we never dreamt that

649
00:27:05,510 --> 00:27:02,960
richard doty would ever he was invisible

650
00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:05,520
at that time he'd been out of the public

651
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:07,840
eye or out of the

652
00:27:12,310 --> 00:27:10,000
ufological eye for

653
00:27:13,110 --> 00:27:12,320
20 years or so so we never imagined we'd

654
00:27:15,110 --> 00:27:13,120
ever

655
00:27:17,909 --> 00:27:15,120
get to talk to rick and we thought we'd

656
00:27:19,430 --> 00:27:17,919
talk to everyone else in the story so

657
00:27:23,190 --> 00:27:19,440
william moore

658
00:27:25,350 --> 00:27:23,200
linda martin howe uh greg bishop and and

659
00:27:26,789 --> 00:27:25,360
various others richard we spoke to

660
00:27:29,110 --> 00:27:26,799
richard dolan

661
00:27:30,470 --> 00:27:29,120
um walter bosley

662
00:27:31,510 --> 00:27:30,480
um

663
00:27:32,950 --> 00:27:31,520
and and

664
00:27:35,750 --> 00:27:32,960
a number of other people but as it

665
00:27:36,789 --> 00:27:35,760
turned out um to our

666
00:27:46,070 --> 00:27:36,799
so

667
00:27:48,310 --> 00:27:46,080
we started working on the film and um

668
00:27:50,149 --> 00:27:48,320
agreed to um to be interviewed by us

669
00:27:52,390 --> 00:27:50,159
which was incredible and

670
00:27:54,149 --> 00:27:52,400
ironically the the one person who

671
00:27:55,029 --> 00:27:54,159
wouldn't speak to us was william moore

672
00:28:00,549 --> 00:27:55,039
who

673
00:28:02,870 --> 00:28:00,559
best known to himself chose not to

674
00:28:05,029 --> 00:28:02,880
not to uh talk to us this is really

675
00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:05,039
doty's first and last screen interview

676
00:28:09,350 --> 00:28:07,200
isn't it and he's absolutely fascinating

677
00:28:10,310 --> 00:28:09,360
on camera i mean he's quite gripping

678
00:28:13,909 --> 00:28:10,320
yeah

679
00:28:17,590 --> 00:28:15,909
william moore though

680
00:28:19,590 --> 00:28:17,600
he he doesn't appear in the film but

681
00:28:22,549 --> 00:28:19,600
linda moulton howe does is that what you

682
00:28:26,149 --> 00:28:22,559
do yeah we spent john and i

683
00:28:26,950 --> 00:28:26,159
sort of asked took us uh three years to

684
00:28:28,070 --> 00:28:26,960
um

685
00:28:32,470 --> 00:28:28,080
to

686
00:28:34,789 --> 00:28:32,480
kept asking her and she kept

687
00:28:37,110 --> 00:28:34,799
refusing and we actually traveled to

688
00:28:39,909 --> 00:28:37,120
las vegas to go to a conference almost

689
00:28:42,389 --> 00:28:39,919
solely to to interview her which which

690
00:28:45,750 --> 00:28:42,399
we managed to do and she's absolutely

691
00:28:47,909 --> 00:28:45,760
incredible on yeah in the film as well

692
00:28:50,310 --> 00:28:47,919
doty and linda morgan how are the stars

693
00:28:52,070 --> 00:28:50,320
the two the twin stars of the film

694
00:28:54,389 --> 00:28:52,080
and more does actually appear in archive

695
00:28:56,710 --> 00:28:54,399
material so his presence is there but um

696
00:28:59,510 --> 00:28:56,720
yeah we actually have um

697
00:29:01,750 --> 00:28:59,520
some sort of home video footage of

698
00:29:02,750 --> 00:29:01,760
uh william moore's uh

699
00:29:06,710 --> 00:29:02,760
infamous

700
00:29:09,669 --> 00:29:06,720
1989 uh speech to the mufon yeah

701
00:29:12,630 --> 00:29:09,679
assembly in uh in las vegas where he

702
00:29:14,950 --> 00:29:12,640
explains his role in the paul bennett's

703
00:29:16,230 --> 00:29:14,960
story and it's that in itself is a is an

704
00:29:18,310 --> 00:29:16,240
incredible

705
00:29:21,190 --> 00:29:18,320
archival piece and this thing very

706
00:29:23,350 --> 00:29:21,200
degraded the sound was synced separately

707
00:29:25,830 --> 00:29:23,360
to the video so it's just got this sort

708
00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:25,840
of time capsule uh feel to it but it's

709
00:29:29,190 --> 00:29:27,600
also there's a

710
00:29:30,549 --> 00:29:29,200
the turning point i think in

711
00:29:33,350 --> 00:29:30,559
contemporary

712
00:29:35,350 --> 00:29:33,360
interview logical uh understanding and

713
00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:35,360
research yeah it was one of the most

714
00:29:43,110 --> 00:29:40,870
speeches verbiages ever strung together

715
00:29:44,630 --> 00:29:43,120
in ufology i mean still

716
00:29:46,870 --> 00:29:44,640
when i hear it

717
00:29:48,070 --> 00:29:46,880
it's uh well it speaks for itself it

718
00:29:49,830 --> 00:29:48,080
really does

719
00:29:53,350 --> 00:29:49,840
what is

720
00:29:58,630 --> 00:29:56,070
well um

721
00:30:00,470 --> 00:29:58,640
i'm not sure we can say anyone

722
00:30:02,389 --> 00:30:00,480
in particular is a mirage man and we

723
00:30:07,190 --> 00:30:02,399
know that uh

724
00:30:09,510 --> 00:30:07,200
i well i strongly suspect uh it's a

725
00:30:12,070 --> 00:30:09,520
knit kind of uh

726
00:30:13,430 --> 00:30:12,080
or group of people all around the world

727
00:30:16,149 --> 00:30:13,440
most of whom probably don't know each

728
00:30:18,630 --> 00:30:16,159
other probably don't work

729
00:30:21,909 --> 00:30:18,640
together except on occasion perhaps they

730
00:30:24,710 --> 00:30:21,919
sort of might exchange information but

731
00:30:26,389 --> 00:30:24,720
the suggestion is that these are the

732
00:30:29,269 --> 00:30:26,399
people who

733
00:30:31,669 --> 00:30:29,279
intentionally or inadvertently

734
00:30:33,430 --> 00:30:31,679
for political reasons for

735
00:30:35,029 --> 00:30:33,440
espionage reasons for intelligence

736
00:30:37,830 --> 00:30:35,039
reasons or for

737
00:30:39,110 --> 00:30:37,840
entertainment reasons are

738
00:30:41,990 --> 00:30:39,120
um

739
00:30:43,110 --> 00:30:42,000
kind of shaping the way that people

740
00:30:45,669 --> 00:30:43,120
uh

741
00:30:47,669 --> 00:30:45,679
engage with

742
00:30:50,389 --> 00:30:47,679
certain aspects of reality especially

743
00:30:51,510 --> 00:30:50,399
those parts that kind of blur the lines

744
00:30:52,710 --> 00:30:51,520
between

745
00:30:54,470 --> 00:30:52,720
uh

746
00:30:56,070 --> 00:30:54,480
the subjective and the objective the

747
00:30:58,230 --> 00:30:56,080
tangible and the

748
00:31:00,710 --> 00:30:58,240
intangible the known and the unknown and

749
00:31:04,070 --> 00:31:00,720
and the ufo is the perfect uh

750
00:31:06,470 --> 00:31:04,080
contemporary example of that they are um

751
00:31:07,830 --> 00:31:06,480
our so greatest living mythological

752
00:31:08,710 --> 00:31:07,840
entities and

753
00:31:10,549 --> 00:31:08,720
uh

754
00:31:13,590 --> 00:31:10,559
yeah we still don't know if they're

755
00:31:16,470 --> 00:31:13,600
entities or technologies but uh

756
00:31:18,070 --> 00:31:16,480
the mirage men you know i think

757
00:31:19,830 --> 00:31:18,080
with you know i think roland and i are

758
00:31:21,510 --> 00:31:19,840
marriage man i think you jimmy our

759
00:31:24,070 --> 00:31:21,520
marriage man i think rick dodie's a

760
00:31:26,149 --> 00:31:24,080
marriage man william morrison a mirage

761
00:31:27,110 --> 00:31:26,159
man all of us who are engaged with

762
00:31:30,149 --> 00:31:27,120
keeping

763
00:31:30,870 --> 00:31:30,159
these stories and this material alive

764
00:31:34,789 --> 00:31:30,880
and

765
00:31:36,549 --> 00:31:34,799
kicking i think is we're all mirage men

766
00:31:39,029 --> 00:31:36,559
and women

767
00:31:41,029 --> 00:31:39,039
did did it all start

768
00:31:44,630 --> 00:31:41,039
uh as you were doing your research i

769
00:31:47,509 --> 00:31:44,640
mean did it did it all start in 1950

770
00:31:50,149 --> 00:31:47,519
when uh rand had published uh their

771
00:31:51,830 --> 00:31:50,159
first paper uh the exploitation of

772
00:31:53,830 --> 00:31:51,840
superstitions for purposes of

773
00:31:55,669 --> 00:31:53,840
psychological warfare i'm sure you guys

774
00:31:56,870 --> 00:31:55,679
have read that paper oh yeah i'm very

775
00:31:59,110 --> 00:31:56,880
familiar with that

776
00:32:01,430 --> 00:31:59,120
ironically i was only i was introduced

777
00:32:03,909 --> 00:32:01,440
to the paper by nick redfern about a

778
00:32:06,310 --> 00:32:03,919
week after i'd handed the manus the

779
00:32:08,230 --> 00:32:06,320
final draft of miragemen and so it's

780
00:32:10,549 --> 00:32:08,240
actually not in the book but it's a

781
00:32:12,870 --> 00:32:10,559
crucial missing link

782
00:32:14,389 --> 00:32:12,880
between some of the events that i do

783
00:32:15,269 --> 00:32:14,399
talk about but

784
00:32:17,590 --> 00:32:15,279
um

785
00:32:19,190 --> 00:32:17,600
i think uh

786
00:32:20,149 --> 00:32:19,200
it probably began

787
00:32:22,710 --> 00:32:20,159
personally

788
00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:22,720
in the book i think it began

789
00:32:26,950 --> 00:32:24,240
uh when

790
00:32:29,750 --> 00:32:26,960
kenneth arnold was persuaded to go out

791
00:32:31,590 --> 00:32:29,760
to tacoma washington and investigate the

792
00:32:33,029 --> 00:32:31,600
maury island

793
00:32:34,870 --> 00:32:33,039
affair and

794
00:32:37,350 --> 00:32:34,880
my

795
00:32:39,990 --> 00:32:37,360
hunch of course we can't prove it now

796
00:32:41,990 --> 00:32:40,000
but my hunch is that

797
00:32:44,630 --> 00:32:42,000
the way that kenneth arnold was talking

798
00:32:48,070 --> 00:32:44,640
about his sighting of the nine

799
00:32:50,310 --> 00:32:48,080
uh objects skipping light discs over

800
00:32:52,310 --> 00:32:50,320
from mount rainier and washington state

801
00:32:54,789 --> 00:32:52,320
and in in

802
00:32:57,669 --> 00:32:54,799
june 1947 i think

803
00:32:59,590 --> 00:32:57,679
the way he was describing what he saw

804
00:33:02,389 --> 00:32:59,600
hinting that he thought they might be

805
00:33:04,630 --> 00:33:02,399
secret aircraft or maybe atomic powered

806
00:33:05,669 --> 00:33:04,640
aircraft i think this

807
00:33:08,149 --> 00:33:05,679
uh

808
00:33:10,070 --> 00:33:08,159
frightened or at least aroused the

809
00:33:12,710 --> 00:33:10,080
suspicions of

810
00:33:13,830 --> 00:33:12,720
the fbi maybe certainly the air force

811
00:33:15,350 --> 00:33:13,840
and they

812
00:33:17,750 --> 00:33:15,360
essentially

813
00:33:18,549 --> 00:33:17,760
set up a kind of honey trap

814
00:33:19,990 --> 00:33:18,559
in

815
00:33:22,149 --> 00:33:20,000
tacoma to

816
00:33:24,389 --> 00:33:22,159
to check him out to assess

817
00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:24,399
his loyalties to find out whether he was

818
00:33:28,549 --> 00:33:26,720
a perhaps uh

819
00:33:29,669 --> 00:33:28,559
a sleeper age and not a sleeper agent

820
00:33:30,549 --> 00:33:29,679
some kind of

821
00:33:32,870 --> 00:33:30,559
uh

822
00:33:34,389 --> 00:33:32,880
either communist sympathizer perhaps

823
00:33:36,870 --> 00:33:34,399
even an agent

824
00:33:38,389 --> 00:33:36,880
and uh the thing to remember is this is

825
00:33:41,990 --> 00:33:38,399
just uh

826
00:33:43,830 --> 00:33:42,000
a very short time after um

827
00:33:48,470 --> 00:33:43,840
an incredible kind of

828
00:33:51,909 --> 00:33:48,480
um culture of soviet moles had been

829
00:33:54,470 --> 00:33:51,919
dug out of uh very high places in the

830
00:33:56,630 --> 00:33:54,480
american political and military

831
00:33:57,990 --> 00:33:56,640
establishments um

832
00:34:00,389 --> 00:33:58,000
so there was

833
00:34:03,430 --> 00:34:00,399
america was on high alert for soviet

834
00:34:05,830 --> 00:34:03,440
spies at this time i think having

835
00:34:09,190 --> 00:34:05,840
a pilot a professional telling the

836
00:34:10,230 --> 00:34:09,200
newspapers that he thought um

837
00:34:12,550 --> 00:34:10,240
the

838
00:34:15,829 --> 00:34:12,560
secret he'd seen secret uh atomic

839
00:34:17,669 --> 00:34:15,839
powered aircraft or perhaps uh soviet

840
00:34:19,430 --> 00:34:17,679
aircraft over their country

841
00:34:22,069 --> 00:34:19,440
sort of set all sorts of alarm bells

842
00:34:23,669 --> 00:34:22,079
ringing so i think that's when it began

843
00:34:27,030 --> 00:34:23,679
right at the start

844
00:34:29,909 --> 00:34:27,040
do you find or did you find that as you

845
00:34:32,389 --> 00:34:29,919
uh started to investigate this that not

846
00:34:35,909 --> 00:34:32,399
only did it involve ufos but you just

847
00:34:38,470 --> 00:34:35,919
alluded to you know atomic research and

848
00:34:39,990 --> 00:34:38,480
uh the deception uh directed back to the

849
00:34:42,230 --> 00:34:40,000
soviet union

850
00:34:43,909 --> 00:34:42,240
did the did you find that

851
00:34:46,550 --> 00:34:43,919
you know mirage men were all over the

852
00:34:47,349 --> 00:34:46,560
place it wasn't just ufos and it wasn't

853
00:34:52,149 --> 00:34:47,359
just

854
00:34:54,470 --> 00:34:52,159
to deceive not only the public but was

855
00:34:55,589 --> 00:34:54,480
it directly related back to the soviet

856
00:34:57,910 --> 00:34:55,599
union

857
00:35:00,069 --> 00:34:57,920
i think it's our star is very much a

858
00:35:02,310 --> 00:35:00,079
cold war story so you can't really

859
00:35:04,710 --> 00:35:02,320
escape from that tension of the cold war

860
00:35:06,470 --> 00:35:04,720
right but it's not just ufos because

861
00:35:10,950 --> 00:35:06,480
cattle mutilation or that may or may not

862
00:35:14,630 --> 00:35:10,960
be a ufo story comes into it right um

863
00:35:17,109 --> 00:35:14,640
it's it does go beyond ufos isn't it

864
00:35:20,790 --> 00:35:17,119
and as robin says it's all about the

865
00:35:23,990 --> 00:35:20,800
cold war it's all about um

866
00:35:25,510 --> 00:35:24,000
the the world after um world war ii and

867
00:35:27,510 --> 00:35:25,520
the tensions and

868
00:35:30,470 --> 00:35:27,520
and and uh

869
00:35:33,190 --> 00:35:30,480
so potentials that kind of emerged

870
00:35:36,390 --> 00:35:33,200
after that and also i think an important

871
00:35:37,829 --> 00:35:36,400
thing to um consider that isn't really i

872
00:35:39,030 --> 00:35:37,839
sort of talk about in the book and in

873
00:35:41,109 --> 00:35:39,040
the film but

874
00:35:43,270 --> 00:35:41,119
is that um

875
00:35:45,910 --> 00:35:43,280
you know we we really can't understand

876
00:35:49,430 --> 00:35:45,920
how horrific and traumatic

877
00:35:51,190 --> 00:35:49,440
uh world war ii so was for everybody who

878
00:35:52,470 --> 00:35:51,200
lived through it whether you were

879
00:35:53,430 --> 00:35:52,480
fighting or

880
00:35:58,150 --> 00:35:53,440
um

881
00:36:00,310 --> 00:35:58,160
or hearing about it from from friends

882
00:36:01,430 --> 00:36:00,320
and family who who had been out in the

883
00:36:03,109 --> 00:36:01,440
war but

884
00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:03,119
um

885
00:36:10,950 --> 00:36:08,160
the thing that ended the war was uh

886
00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:10,960
technology it was the the most cut so

887
00:36:15,190 --> 00:36:13,200
cataclysmic destructive appalling

888
00:36:17,589 --> 00:36:15,200
technology ever

889
00:36:18,630 --> 00:36:17,599
ever sort of unleashed on the face of

890
00:36:21,670 --> 00:36:18,640
the earth

891
00:36:23,510 --> 00:36:21,680
and um i think that must have had an

892
00:36:25,990 --> 00:36:23,520
incredible

893
00:36:27,990 --> 00:36:26,000
psychological and emotional impact on

894
00:36:29,510 --> 00:36:28,000
everybody knowing that

895
00:36:31,510 --> 00:36:29,520
um

896
00:36:33,750 --> 00:36:31,520
it was no longer uh

897
00:36:35,670 --> 00:36:33,760
god's will that we would live or die it

898
00:36:36,630 --> 00:36:35,680
was our own will and it was

899
00:36:38,950 --> 00:36:36,640
uh

900
00:36:42,069 --> 00:36:38,960
in the hands of people who

901
00:36:44,950 --> 00:36:42,079
we only had to hope were going to uh you

902
00:36:47,910 --> 00:36:44,960
know to use this technology responsibly

903
00:36:50,870 --> 00:36:47,920
so the idea that there was some kind of

904
00:36:54,310 --> 00:36:50,880
higher power coming perhaps from

905
00:36:55,430 --> 00:36:54,320
another planet or another galaxy

906
00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:55,440
who

907
00:36:59,109 --> 00:36:56,640
actually

908
00:37:00,630 --> 00:36:59,119
had greater technology than our own who

909
00:37:03,270 --> 00:37:00,640
were

910
00:37:05,750 --> 00:37:03,280
uh essentially kind of technological

911
00:37:06,829 --> 00:37:05,760
angels who could come to earth very much

912
00:37:10,069 --> 00:37:06,839
like

913
00:37:12,390 --> 00:37:10,079
um uh clatto and the day the earth stood

914
00:37:14,790 --> 00:37:12,400
still could come to

915
00:37:17,109 --> 00:37:14,800
our planet and basically tell us

916
00:37:19,589 --> 00:37:17,119
how to behave and how to live our lives

917
00:37:22,790 --> 00:37:19,599
and be a higher authority than ourselves

918
00:37:25,990 --> 00:37:22,800
this was i think um

919
00:37:28,550 --> 00:37:26,000
sort of a desirable um

920
00:37:30,470 --> 00:37:28,560
a desirable sort of institution to set

921
00:37:33,270 --> 00:37:30,480
up or desirable

922
00:37:35,030 --> 00:37:33,280
um what sort of

923
00:37:37,190 --> 00:37:35,040
um

924
00:37:39,750 --> 00:37:37,200
uh so it's it's

925
00:37:41,030 --> 00:37:39,760
it's a desirable um state of affairs

926
00:37:42,630 --> 00:37:41,040
anyway to have

927
00:37:44,310 --> 00:37:42,640
to have uh

928
00:37:46,310 --> 00:37:44,320
someone other than ourselves being

929
00:37:48,470 --> 00:37:46,320
responsible and and i think there was a

930
00:37:51,030 --> 00:37:48,480
fear that if god was written out of the

931
00:37:53,349 --> 00:37:51,040
picture as he might have been then

932
00:37:55,510 --> 00:37:53,359
the extraterrestrials could could

933
00:37:56,310 --> 00:37:55,520
fulfill that role

934
00:37:59,030 --> 00:37:56,320
well

935
00:38:00,550 --> 00:37:59,040
in during world war ii we started to

936
00:38:03,670 --> 00:38:00,560
well deception

937
00:38:05,349 --> 00:38:03,680
spy networks uh

938
00:38:08,550 --> 00:38:05,359
it's it's always been there it's been

939
00:38:10,390 --> 00:38:08,560
there going back probably to

940
00:38:12,150 --> 00:38:10,400
uh roman

941
00:38:15,109 --> 00:38:12,160
the roman empire but

942
00:38:18,630 --> 00:38:15,119
uh the chinese deception

943
00:38:21,990 --> 00:38:18,640
you know of figuring out a way to uh

944
00:38:25,030 --> 00:38:22,000
mislead you know the other side and then

945
00:38:27,510 --> 00:38:25,040
attack or do something else uh through

946
00:38:30,310 --> 00:38:27,520
that deception and then after world war

947
00:38:33,750 --> 00:38:30,320
ii suddenly we had a really

948
00:38:36,150 --> 00:38:33,760
really strong uh philosophy for that

949
00:38:40,870 --> 00:38:36,160
coming out of the manhattan project

950
00:38:43,510 --> 00:38:40,880
um deception uh with with uh d-day and

951
00:38:45,510 --> 00:38:43,520
and that entire spot but but now we had

952
00:38:48,630 --> 00:38:45,520
a new uh a new

953
00:38:51,510 --> 00:38:48,640
how do i say this a new subject to

954
00:38:52,630 --> 00:38:51,520
deceive with or uh which was the ufo

955
00:38:54,069 --> 00:38:52,640
subject

956
00:38:55,109 --> 00:38:54,079
um so

957
00:38:57,270 --> 00:38:55,119
do

958
00:38:59,270 --> 00:38:57,280
was it

959
00:39:01,990 --> 00:38:59,280
how do i say this correctly

960
00:39:05,829 --> 00:39:02,000
was there like a training program

961
00:39:07,510 --> 00:39:05,839
that do i mean where where do these guys

962
00:39:09,910 --> 00:39:07,520
learn are they learning on their feet

963
00:39:12,630 --> 00:39:09,920
were there's or was there an actual

964
00:39:13,589 --> 00:39:12,640
program in place or were they taking it

965
00:39:16,790 --> 00:39:13,599
one

966
00:39:19,430 --> 00:39:16,800
i think there was a program in place

967
00:39:20,710 --> 00:39:19,440
from doty's testimony he says he was you

968
00:39:21,990 --> 00:39:20,720
know shown

969
00:39:24,630 --> 00:39:22,000
film

970
00:39:27,190 --> 00:39:24,640
he was he was trained to how to use the

971
00:39:29,430 --> 00:39:27,200
stories of ufo to cover certain secret

972
00:39:31,510 --> 00:39:29,440
technology right though he also believes

973
00:39:33,589 --> 00:39:31,520
there was genuine e.t contact so you

974
00:39:36,069 --> 00:39:33,599
have this dual

975
00:39:38,710 --> 00:39:36,079
aspect to doji that is both a believer

976
00:39:41,109 --> 00:39:38,720
and a manipulator which is makes him an

977
00:39:43,190 --> 00:39:41,119
absolutely fascinating character but

978
00:39:44,470 --> 00:39:43,200
from if you believe him and i

979
00:39:45,990 --> 00:39:44,480
i'm not sure if one should believe

980
00:39:48,310 --> 00:39:46,000
anything doty says but if you believe

981
00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:48,320
him he he says it was a you know there

982
00:39:53,109 --> 00:39:50,240
was an act a deliberate concerted

983
00:39:55,270 --> 00:39:53,119
campaign to deceive people by using the

984
00:39:57,190 --> 00:39:55,280
notion of ufos

985
00:39:59,349 --> 00:39:57,200
and water bosley says the same so yeah

986
00:40:01,510 --> 00:39:59,359
well i mean this is by the 1970s but i

987
00:40:03,910 --> 00:40:01,520
think going back to the

988
00:40:06,310 --> 00:40:03,920
50s certainly they were

989
00:40:09,109 --> 00:40:06,320
learning from techniques that they had

990
00:40:10,710 --> 00:40:09,119
um that well they that the mirage men

991
00:40:12,150 --> 00:40:10,720
broadly had developed during the war so

992
00:40:12,950 --> 00:40:12,160
that would mean

993
00:40:15,030 --> 00:40:12,960
um

994
00:40:17,670 --> 00:40:15,040
people like neville sorry jasper

995
00:40:18,710 --> 00:40:17,680
masculine uh the magician

996
00:40:20,390 --> 00:40:18,720
um

997
00:40:23,829 --> 00:40:20,400
you know

998
00:40:26,069 --> 00:40:23,839
con to overseeing deception operations

999
00:40:28,870 --> 00:40:26,079
um whereby who's building inflatable

1000
00:40:31,990 --> 00:40:28,880
tanks and decoys exactly

1001
00:40:32,950 --> 00:40:32,000
that's exactly my point that's exactly

1002
00:40:36,470 --> 00:40:32,960
uh

1003
00:40:39,109 --> 00:40:36,480
they they had a machine in place

1004
00:40:43,030 --> 00:40:39,119
after world war ii but they didn't have

1005
00:40:46,390 --> 00:40:43,040
uh a reason to use it and suddenly 1947

1006
00:40:49,829 --> 00:40:46,400
happens and now you've got this huge

1007
00:40:51,670 --> 00:40:49,839
deception machine uh there that they've

1008
00:40:53,589 --> 00:40:51,680
built after world war ii

1009
00:40:56,550 --> 00:40:53,599
and were the you know so were they just

1010
00:40:58,230 --> 00:40:56,560
standing around without anything to do

1011
00:40:59,430 --> 00:40:58,240
and i get you know do you understand and

1012
00:41:00,870 --> 00:40:59,440
suddenly

1013
00:41:03,829 --> 00:41:00,880
boom

1014
00:41:05,510 --> 00:41:03,839
we have uh nuclear weapons we have uh

1015
00:41:07,829 --> 00:41:05,520
missile technology that we're now

1016
00:41:12,230 --> 00:41:07,839
developing we need to deceive there

1017
00:41:15,030 --> 00:41:12,240
now we have ufos and and alien contact

1018
00:41:16,309 --> 00:41:15,040
and the two seem to have

1019
00:41:18,630 --> 00:41:16,319
merged

1020
00:41:20,870 --> 00:41:18,640
and and that and that's my point and

1021
00:41:23,109 --> 00:41:20,880
they were just like off and running

1022
00:41:24,790 --> 00:41:23,119
and anything that they needed to deceive

1023
00:41:27,750 --> 00:41:24,800
the russians on

1024
00:41:28,790 --> 00:41:27,760
you know nuclear nuclear weapons or

1025
00:41:31,030 --> 00:41:28,800
missiles

1026
00:41:33,109 --> 00:41:31,040
sun or aircraft you know aircraft that

1027
00:41:35,430 --> 00:41:33,119
were being tested suddenly everything

1028
00:41:38,150 --> 00:41:35,440
could be deflected into

1029
00:41:41,109 --> 00:41:38,160
it must be a ufo and was that you know

1030
00:41:42,390 --> 00:41:41,119
and with the rand corporation in 1950

1031
00:41:43,430 --> 00:41:42,400
was this

1032
00:41:48,870 --> 00:41:43,440
the

1033
00:41:52,069 --> 00:41:48,880
60s and 70s i think absolutely and if

1034
00:41:53,589 --> 00:41:52,079
you look at the rand paper one of the

1035
00:41:55,349 --> 00:41:53,599
incredible things about it and there are

1036
00:41:56,550 --> 00:41:55,359
many incredible things about it but it

1037
00:41:59,430 --> 00:41:56,560
talks about

1038
00:42:02,309 --> 00:41:59,440
um you know very ancient uh deception

1039
00:42:05,990 --> 00:42:02,319
techniques going back to to ancient uh

1040
00:42:06,950 --> 00:42:06,000
greece uh it talks about uh masculine's

1041
00:42:13,829 --> 00:42:06,960
uh

1042
00:42:16,309 --> 00:42:13,839
astrological

1043
00:42:17,510 --> 00:42:16,319
magazines in germany by the british in

1044
00:42:19,109 --> 00:42:17,520
world war

1045
00:42:21,430 --> 00:42:19,119
ii it talks about

1046
00:42:23,670 --> 00:42:21,440
um you know faking

1047
00:42:26,230 --> 00:42:23,680
exploiting all sorts of uh different

1048
00:42:28,309 --> 00:42:26,240
beliefs whether they're sort of orthodox

1049
00:42:31,190 --> 00:42:28,319
religions or almost folkloric and

1050
00:42:33,109 --> 00:42:31,200
superstitious

1051
00:42:34,790 --> 00:42:33,119
what's the one thing that is not

1052
00:42:37,109 --> 00:42:34,800
mentioned in that paper

1053
00:42:39,030 --> 00:42:37,119
that's that's produced by a subsidiary

1054
00:42:42,069 --> 00:42:39,040
of the air force is flying sources and

1055
00:42:43,589 --> 00:42:42,079
this is in 1950 which is you know one of

1056
00:42:50,790 --> 00:42:43,599
the

1057
00:42:52,069 --> 00:42:50,800
flying saucer uh

1058
00:42:53,109 --> 00:42:52,079
sort of

1059
00:42:54,309 --> 00:42:53,119
uh

1060
00:42:55,430 --> 00:42:54,319
waved

1061
00:43:02,069 --> 00:42:55,440
um

1062
00:43:04,230 --> 00:43:02,079
conspicuous by their omission uh in the

1063
00:43:05,910 --> 00:43:04,240
rand paper and

1064
00:43:06,950 --> 00:43:05,920
i think it's no

1065
00:43:09,349 --> 00:43:06,960
um

1066
00:43:11,589 --> 00:43:09,359
coincidence that just a couple of weeks

1067
00:43:15,430 --> 00:43:11,599
before the paper was published

1068
00:43:17,910 --> 00:43:15,440
you have the infant incident at

1069
00:43:21,430 --> 00:43:17,920
university of colorado in denver

1070
00:43:24,069 --> 00:43:21,440
where a then anonymous figure

1071
00:43:27,270 --> 00:43:24,079
presenting himself as a scientist starts

1072
00:43:30,230 --> 00:43:27,280
lecturing about ufos and flying sources

1073
00:43:31,990 --> 00:43:30,240
and crash spacecraft and captured

1074
00:43:33,829 --> 00:43:32,000
extraterrestrials to

1075
00:43:35,349 --> 00:43:33,839
science and engineering students at the

1076
00:43:38,230 --> 00:43:35,359
university

1077
00:43:42,069 --> 00:43:39,829
what appeared to be air force officers

1078
00:43:42,950 --> 00:43:42,079
in uniform start quizzing

1079
00:43:51,349 --> 00:43:42,960
the

1080
00:43:54,550 --> 00:43:51,359
that

1081
00:43:55,430 --> 00:43:54,560
america held crashed uh flying sources

1082
00:43:57,990 --> 00:43:55,440
so

1083
00:44:02,150 --> 00:43:59,270
i'm uh

1084
00:44:03,990 --> 00:44:02,160
i'd i'd be more surprised if those two

1085
00:44:06,550 --> 00:44:04,000
things the rand paper

1086
00:44:09,190 --> 00:44:06,560
and the uh and the denver colorado

1087
00:44:10,470 --> 00:44:09,200
lectures weren't connected than if they

1088
00:44:13,990 --> 00:44:10,480
were

1089
00:44:16,630 --> 00:44:14,000
um so that seems like it's a

1090
00:44:18,150 --> 00:44:16,640
market research for the rand paper that

1091
00:44:20,069 --> 00:44:18,160
that was going to be published a couple

1092
00:44:22,630 --> 00:44:20,079
of weeks later

1093
00:44:25,190 --> 00:44:22,640
with richard doty

1094
00:44:28,150 --> 00:44:25,200
when uh he has

1095
00:44:30,950 --> 00:44:28,160
well him and bill moore too um but one

1096
00:44:32,790 --> 00:44:30,960
you know such a colorful background

1097
00:44:41,750 --> 00:44:32,800
in

1098
00:44:43,829 --> 00:44:41,760
believe

1099
00:44:47,030 --> 00:44:43,839
what is untrue and what is true it's

1100
00:44:48,870 --> 00:44:47,040
just a weird situation for him

1101
00:44:51,190 --> 00:44:48,880
how how do we

1102
00:44:54,230 --> 00:44:51,200
how do we know what to believe

1103
00:44:56,390 --> 00:44:54,240
well that's a very good question i think

1104
00:44:58,230 --> 00:44:56,400
one way of looking at what doty does

1105
00:45:01,190 --> 00:44:58,240
which is both to

1106
00:45:03,030 --> 00:45:01,200
encourage and to undermine the whole

1107
00:45:04,470 --> 00:45:03,040
belief in ufos which seems at first

1108
00:45:06,630 --> 00:45:04,480
contradictory

1109
00:45:08,630 --> 00:45:06,640
but if you actually want to take public

1110
00:45:10,790 --> 00:45:08,640
attention away from

1111
00:45:13,190 --> 00:45:10,800
something if you actually encourage a

1112
00:45:14,870 --> 00:45:13,200
cult belief and then discredit that

1113
00:45:16,309 --> 00:45:14,880
that's a wonderful way of taking

1114
00:45:18,630 --> 00:45:16,319
attention away from something you don't

1115
00:45:20,390 --> 00:45:18,640
want people to know about for instance

1116
00:45:21,750 --> 00:45:20,400
what serious researcher would now want

1117
00:45:23,589 --> 00:45:21,760
to

1118
00:45:25,190 --> 00:45:23,599
look at roswell

1119
00:45:27,030 --> 00:45:25,200
what what official research you want to

1120
00:45:28,790 --> 00:45:27,040
look at roswell or cattle mutilation

1121
00:45:30,230 --> 00:45:28,800
because they're being sort of pushed to

1122
00:45:32,870 --> 00:45:30,240
the fringe

1123
00:45:35,910 --> 00:45:32,880
by maybe the mirage men and people like

1124
00:45:37,670 --> 00:45:35,920
doty so that way of encouraging building

1125
00:45:38,950 --> 00:45:37,680
up an interest in something with a

1126
00:45:41,109 --> 00:45:38,960
certain group of

1127
00:45:43,190 --> 00:45:41,119
of specialist enthusiasts and then at

1128
00:45:45,109 --> 00:45:43,200
the same time undermining it i think is

1129
00:45:47,109 --> 00:45:45,119
a very clever way to take public

1130
00:45:49,589 --> 00:45:47,119
attention away from something the

1131
00:45:50,470 --> 00:45:49,599
government doesn't want you to look at

1132
00:45:53,750 --> 00:45:50,480
but

1133
00:45:58,470 --> 00:45:56,790
well the film when you get to see it is

1134
00:46:00,069 --> 00:45:58,480
what we hope to do

1135
00:46:01,510 --> 00:46:00,079
once you actually begin to believe

1136
00:46:03,589 --> 00:46:01,520
something we pull the rug from under

1137
00:46:04,630 --> 00:46:03,599
your feet and you then have to question

1138
00:46:06,790 --> 00:46:04,640
it again

1139
00:46:08,710 --> 00:46:06,800
so it's really those sort of stories

1140
00:46:09,829 --> 00:46:08,720
within stories

1141
00:46:10,790 --> 00:46:09,839
um

1142
00:46:11,990 --> 00:46:10,800
i'm not going to tell you what you

1143
00:46:13,349 --> 00:46:12,000
should believe

1144
00:46:16,790 --> 00:46:13,359
i think we all have to work that out for

1145
00:46:18,470 --> 00:46:16,800
ourselves and the film very determinedly

1146
00:46:21,030 --> 00:46:18,480
refuses to

1147
00:46:22,870 --> 00:46:21,040
tell the viewer what to believe and

1148
00:46:25,109 --> 00:46:22,880
most people appreciate that we've had a

1149
00:46:26,870 --> 00:46:25,119
few people who who would rather have

1150
00:46:29,109 --> 00:46:26,880
been able to come away with some

1151
00:46:31,589 --> 00:46:29,119
certainty on the subject but the the

1152
00:46:33,670 --> 00:46:31,599
reality of this situation is

1153
00:46:36,710 --> 00:46:33,680
that there is very little certainty

1154
00:46:39,990 --> 00:46:36,720
about anything at all within uh the the

1155
00:46:42,630 --> 00:46:40,000
ufo uh stories

1156
00:46:45,510 --> 00:46:42,640
trying to reflect that absolutely

1157
00:46:48,630 --> 00:46:45,520
but this is this is the thing and

1158
00:46:50,390 --> 00:46:48,640
and you know what this show is about so

1159
00:46:54,230 --> 00:46:50,400
even for me

1160
00:46:57,270 --> 00:46:54,240
uh and and with this subject uh

1161
00:47:00,309 --> 00:46:57,280
i i'm totally fascinated with it but

1162
00:47:02,950 --> 00:47:00,319
even for me i i probably would have sat

1163
00:47:05,510 --> 00:47:02,960
there and i know you had a moment

1164
00:47:07,670 --> 00:47:05,520
where even you or you just sat there and

1165
00:47:09,030 --> 00:47:07,680
went oh come on

1166
00:47:11,349 --> 00:47:09,040
you know where

1167
00:47:14,069 --> 00:47:11,359
okay all right did you have a moment

1168
00:47:15,910 --> 00:47:14,079
like that where eve it even got a little

1169
00:47:18,069 --> 00:47:15,920
bit too out there

1170
00:47:20,870 --> 00:47:18,079
absolutely had several moments like that

1171
00:47:23,109 --> 00:47:20,880
and we also had uh

1172
00:47:26,150 --> 00:47:23,119
john lundberg and i also had moments

1173
00:47:28,150 --> 00:47:26,160
where more for john where he was

1174
00:47:31,349 --> 00:47:28,160
persuaded that the

1175
00:47:33,670 --> 00:47:31,359
the core story the the roswell crash the

1176
00:47:36,790 --> 00:47:33,680
uh the technology exchange all the

1177
00:47:39,510 --> 00:47:36,800
things that are part of the

1178
00:47:42,309 --> 00:47:39,520
late 20th century ufo um

1179
00:47:45,109 --> 00:47:42,319
uh so legend uh he

1180
00:47:48,150 --> 00:47:45,119
was persuaded by one of our interviewees

1181
00:47:49,109 --> 00:47:48,160
that it was all true and that actually

1182
00:47:51,910 --> 00:47:49,119
threw

1183
00:47:53,829 --> 00:47:51,920
a real cur to believe suddenly believing

1184
00:47:56,550 --> 00:47:53,839
through a greater curveball

1185
00:47:58,790 --> 00:47:56,560
uh artist than than than not believing

1186
00:47:59,750 --> 00:47:58,800
and um but there were certainly points

1187
00:48:00,790 --> 00:47:59,760
where

1188
00:48:03,750 --> 00:48:00,800
uh

1189
00:48:06,470 --> 00:48:03,760
i felt rick doty certainly kind of

1190
00:48:08,390 --> 00:48:06,480
crossed the line and i said as much and

1191
00:48:10,230 --> 00:48:08,400
the um

1192
00:48:12,390 --> 00:48:10,240
the strange thing was with this

1193
00:48:14,069 --> 00:48:12,400
particular incident

1194
00:48:15,990 --> 00:48:14,079
um he actually

1195
00:48:18,150 --> 00:48:16,000
i began to believe that he really

1196
00:48:20,230 --> 00:48:18,160
believed that the craziest things that

1197
00:48:22,230 --> 00:48:20,240
he was telling us and that that just

1198
00:48:23,510 --> 00:48:22,240
sort of shows either

1199
00:48:26,150 --> 00:48:23,520
uh

1200
00:48:27,750 --> 00:48:26,160
that he's extremely well sort of trained

1201
00:48:29,829 --> 00:48:27,760
in uh in

1202
00:48:32,549 --> 00:48:29,839
persuasion or that

1203
00:48:34,870 --> 00:48:32,559
this is just a kind of

1204
00:48:38,470 --> 00:48:34,880
such an incredibly complex

1205
00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:38,480
nest of uh also giant rubber band ball

1206
00:48:43,190 --> 00:48:41,040
of of different uh beliefs and stories

1207
00:48:44,630 --> 00:48:43,200
that you just can't get through to the

1208
00:48:46,870 --> 00:48:44,640
bottom of it well the problem with doty

1209
00:48:50,150 --> 00:48:46,880
is he's a self-confessed liar because

1210
00:48:52,549 --> 00:48:50,160
he's confessed to manipulating right

1211
00:48:54,069 --> 00:48:52,559
paul bennetts and linda martin howe so

1212
00:48:56,470 --> 00:48:54,079
why should he believe anything that a

1213
00:48:59,270 --> 00:48:56,480
self-confessed liar says well but that

1214
00:49:00,829 --> 00:48:59,280
was his job and so that's that's maybe

1215
00:49:03,510 --> 00:49:00,839
it still

1216
00:49:06,390 --> 00:49:03,520
is a fascinating thing i will i will

1217
00:49:09,270 --> 00:49:06,400
share this with everybody um just to let

1218
00:49:11,910 --> 00:49:09,280
you know how crazy life can be but i had

1219
00:49:14,470 --> 00:49:11,920
a friend of mine come over to my house

1220
00:49:17,829 --> 00:49:14,480
uh many years ago 10 years 15 years ago

1221
00:49:19,430 --> 00:49:17,839
and he came over and he said jimmy

1222
00:49:21,829 --> 00:49:19,440
there are guys

1223
00:49:23,349 --> 00:49:21,839
in the apartment next door

1224
00:49:26,150 --> 00:49:23,359
taping me

1225
00:49:27,670 --> 00:49:26,160
i'm like oh come on man stop stop stop

1226
00:49:29,589 --> 00:49:27,680
stop right there you need to eat some

1227
00:49:32,230 --> 00:49:29,599
food or something you know

1228
00:49:33,670 --> 00:49:32,240
you need to sit down and have a drink no

1229
00:49:35,190 --> 00:49:33,680
man they've been doing it for a couple

1230
00:49:36,950 --> 00:49:35,200
of weeks

1231
00:49:39,190 --> 00:49:36,960
and i'm like

1232
00:49:42,390 --> 00:49:39,200
his name oddly enough was richard and i

1233
00:49:45,109 --> 00:49:42,400
said man you know let's just calm down i

1234
00:49:46,870 --> 00:49:45,119
changed the subject a couple of days

1235
00:49:49,190 --> 00:49:46,880
later he leaves

1236
00:49:50,230 --> 00:49:49,200
i i i get him

1237
00:49:51,030 --> 00:49:50,240
to

1238
00:49:52,950 --> 00:49:51,040
uh

1239
00:49:54,870 --> 00:49:52,960
think that maybe he was just going a

1240
00:49:57,510 --> 00:49:54,880
little bit crazy that maybe he just

1241
00:50:00,309 --> 00:49:57,520
needs to relax it's not real a couple of

1242
00:50:02,309 --> 00:50:00,319
days later unrelated event

1243
00:50:04,390 --> 00:50:02,319
i'm with uh

1244
00:50:06,150 --> 00:50:04,400
a couple of law enforcement guys and

1245
00:50:09,190 --> 00:50:06,160
we're sitting there talking who

1246
00:50:12,790 --> 00:50:09,200
there was a bunch of us sitting

1247
00:50:16,069 --> 00:50:12,800
and they happened to say when they found

1248
00:50:18,069 --> 00:50:16,079
out that i was friends with this guy

1249
00:50:19,670 --> 00:50:18,079
they happened to say hey yeah you know

1250
00:50:20,710 --> 00:50:19,680
we've been taping him for a couple of

1251
00:50:25,349 --> 00:50:20,720
weeks

1252
00:50:30,790 --> 00:50:27,190
whoa whoa whoa whoa

1253
00:50:33,670 --> 00:50:30,800
and i just thought to myself and it was

1254
00:50:35,990 --> 00:50:33,680
just a weird it did the the the reason

1255
00:50:38,549 --> 00:50:36,000
for everything it did it doesn't even

1256
00:50:40,630 --> 00:50:38,559
matter what there wasn't anything

1257
00:50:42,309 --> 00:50:40,640
suspicious or anything weird going on

1258
00:50:45,270 --> 00:50:42,319
but he just happened to be in this

1259
00:50:47,829 --> 00:50:45,280
apartment where this was going down

1260
00:50:49,349 --> 00:50:47,839
okay but the point is

1261
00:50:53,030 --> 00:50:49,359
you never know

1262
00:50:56,630 --> 00:50:53,040
and i am telling my friend that it's not

1263
00:50:58,950 --> 00:50:56,640
true it's not real and then i i find out

1264
00:51:01,589 --> 00:50:58,960
a couple of days later you just never

1265
00:51:04,309 --> 00:51:01,599
ever ever know who is telling the truth

1266
00:51:07,190 --> 00:51:04,319
and how crazy a story can be

1267
00:51:09,990 --> 00:51:07,200
you need to have an open mind you really

1268
00:51:13,109 --> 00:51:10,000
do because you just don't know

1269
00:51:16,710 --> 00:51:13,119
what reality is you just don't yeah and

1270
00:51:19,349 --> 00:51:16,720
and that's absolutely that's so very um

1271
00:51:20,950 --> 00:51:19,359
uh very pertinent to the sort of stories

1272
00:51:21,670 --> 00:51:20,960
we're talking about the richmond story i

1273
00:51:23,430 --> 00:51:21,680
think

1274
00:51:26,549 --> 00:51:23,440
a lot of the time

1275
00:51:28,870 --> 00:51:26,559
if uh ufo investigators or researchers

1276
00:51:30,069 --> 00:51:28,880
do encounter the mirage men that it's

1277
00:51:31,109 --> 00:51:30,079
because

1278
00:51:32,069 --> 00:51:31,119
they've

1279
00:51:34,790 --> 00:51:32,079
sort of

1280
00:51:37,190 --> 00:51:34,800
walked into something that they think

1281
00:51:38,870 --> 00:51:37,200
about is about ufos but

1282
00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:38,880
is most likely about something else

1283
00:51:41,910 --> 00:51:40,880
entirely and they they're sort of

1284
00:51:43,190 --> 00:51:41,920
innocent

1285
00:51:45,430 --> 00:51:43,200
uh

1286
00:51:47,030 --> 00:51:45,440
pawns in a in a bigger story and then

1287
00:51:48,470 --> 00:51:47,040
that's when they get played and that's

1288
00:51:50,549 --> 00:51:48,480
what happened to

1289
00:51:52,150 --> 00:51:50,559
paul benowitz yeah

1290
00:51:53,589 --> 00:51:52,160
a lot of other people so

1291
00:51:55,030 --> 00:51:53,599
you know they they

1292
00:51:56,710 --> 00:51:55,040
may have thought they were being

1293
00:51:58,470 --> 00:51:56,720
monitored because they were getting too

1294
00:52:00,549 --> 00:51:58,480
close to one truth but in fact they were

1295
00:52:01,750 --> 00:52:00,559
getting too close to something they had

1296
00:52:03,990 --> 00:52:01,760
no idea about

1297
00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:04,000
with that let's let's take a quick break

1298
00:52:09,829 --> 00:52:06,480
because i want to get into the paul

1299
00:52:12,150 --> 00:52:09,839
benowitz uh story phenomenon

1300
00:52:13,750 --> 00:52:12,160
uh uh right after the break we are

1301
00:52:15,910 --> 00:52:13,760
talking to mark pilkington and roland

1302
00:52:17,990 --> 00:52:15,920
denning about the new documentary

1303
00:52:20,390 --> 00:52:18,000
mirageman this is to black i'm your host

1304
00:52:22,549 --> 00:52:20,400
jimmy church on the dark matter radio

1305
00:52:34,710 --> 00:52:22,559
network stay with us we'll be back right

1306
00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:36,150
hi everybody this is rob halpert the

1307
00:52:45,990 --> 00:52:43,589
what's up my name is brian taylor ninja

1308
00:52:50,870 --> 00:52:46,000
badass extraordinaire and this is

1309
00:52:55,150 --> 00:52:51,790
hey

1310
00:52:57,829 --> 00:52:55,160
jcr in your face

1311
00:53:12,230 --> 00:52:57,839
jimmychurchradio.com on the dark matter

1312
00:53:17,510 --> 00:53:14,150
all right we are back pay to black i'm

1313
00:53:19,910 --> 00:53:17,520
your host jimmy church kjcr the dark

1314
00:53:21,750 --> 00:53:19,920
matter radio network

1315
00:53:25,109 --> 00:53:21,760
live from london england mark

1316
00:53:28,230 --> 00:53:25,119
hillsington roland denning the miragemen

1317
00:53:30,390 --> 00:53:28,240
the new documentary we started to guys

1318
00:53:34,870 --> 00:53:30,400
uh right before the break

1319
00:53:36,950 --> 00:53:34,880
to get into the uh paul benowitz story

1320
00:53:38,470 --> 00:53:36,960
and i think um

1321
00:53:40,230 --> 00:53:38,480
for me

1322
00:53:43,190 --> 00:53:40,240
heartbreaking

1323
00:53:45,750 --> 00:53:43,200
is the word here um when you

1324
00:53:48,470 --> 00:53:45,760
when you get into uh paul's story and

1325
00:53:50,470 --> 00:53:48,480
how the deception was played on him

1326
00:53:52,710 --> 00:53:50,480
uh so let's get into the paul benowitz

1327
00:53:56,630 --> 00:53:52,720
story but before we do

1328
00:53:57,750 --> 00:53:56,640
what do you did you detect any

1329
00:54:00,390 --> 00:53:57,760
guilt

1330
00:54:02,309 --> 00:54:00,400
from dodie on this subject did he feel

1331
00:54:04,950 --> 00:54:02,319
better oh yes so there's moments of

1332
00:54:06,470 --> 00:54:04,960
guilt or what looks like guilt i mean he

1333
00:54:08,630 --> 00:54:06,480
refers to

1334
00:54:11,430 --> 00:54:08,640
benderetz is a really good friend and a

1335
00:54:14,309 --> 00:54:11,440
great guy and

1336
00:54:16,069 --> 00:54:14,319
there there are moments i mean watching

1337
00:54:17,829 --> 00:54:16,079
you can i say doty is fascinating

1338
00:54:20,150 --> 00:54:17,839
because you just watch his expression

1339
00:54:22,069 --> 00:54:20,160
silence you think guy that guy's telling

1340
00:54:23,670 --> 00:54:22,079
the truth you know he's really believe

1341
00:54:25,589 --> 00:54:23,680
in that moment at the moment he's sort

1342
00:54:26,470 --> 00:54:25,599
of twitching you think no i'm not so

1343
00:54:28,790 --> 00:54:26,480
sure

1344
00:54:31,750 --> 00:54:28,800
but i i definitely think there's some

1345
00:54:33,750 --> 00:54:31,760
sense of remorse and and guilt about the

1346
00:54:35,349 --> 00:54:33,760
benefits of failure it got out of hand i

1347
00:54:37,750 --> 00:54:35,359
think everyone involved in it would tell

1348
00:54:39,750 --> 00:54:37,760
you that yeah i think i mean i think

1349
00:54:42,390 --> 00:54:39,760
that is the uh

1350
00:54:44,549 --> 00:54:42,400
that that the story in a nutshell is

1351
00:54:47,990 --> 00:54:44,559
what should have been

1352
00:54:50,230 --> 00:54:48,000
a short-lived and self-contained

1353
00:54:53,430 --> 00:54:50,240
uh operation became

1354
00:54:57,030 --> 00:54:53,440
a sprawling mess that changed so late

1355
00:54:59,589 --> 00:54:57,040
20th century america ultimately and um

1356
00:55:01,910 --> 00:54:59,599
and someone got hurt you know

1357
00:55:04,309 --> 00:55:01,920
someone and his family got got hurt and

1358
00:55:05,990 --> 00:55:04,319
that's uh that's a tragedy

1359
00:55:07,750 --> 00:55:06,000
and what's one of the complicating

1360
00:55:10,309 --> 00:55:07,760
factors in a benefits affair is that

1361
00:55:12,390 --> 00:55:10,319
there was not just the afosi the

1362
00:55:14,069 --> 00:55:12,400
american the air force security services

1363
00:55:16,470 --> 00:55:14,079
involved but the nsa are involved in

1364
00:55:18,069 --> 00:55:16,480
maybe other agencies so you've also got

1365
00:55:19,910 --> 00:55:18,079
this clash within the government

1366
00:55:21,510 --> 00:55:19,920
organizations and they all have

1367
00:55:23,349 --> 00:55:21,520
different agendas i mean people like to

1368
00:55:25,190 --> 00:55:23,359
think of the government as this monolith

1369
00:55:26,950 --> 00:55:25,200
but it's actually full of competing

1370
00:55:29,910 --> 00:55:26,960
agencies all with slight different

1371
00:55:31,510 --> 00:55:29,920
agendas sometimes competing agendas so

1372
00:55:33,510 --> 00:55:31,520
paul bennerweights probably got caught

1373
00:55:35,750 --> 00:55:33,520
in the middle of this as well well

1374
00:55:38,230 --> 00:55:35,760
with oh i'm sorry to cut you off mark

1375
00:55:39,990 --> 00:55:38,240
but with with benowitz

1376
00:55:41,990 --> 00:55:40,000
it's like the chicken or the egg what

1377
00:55:45,670 --> 00:55:42,000
came first with him

1378
00:55:47,430 --> 00:55:45,680
was it his story or was it the deception

1379
00:55:49,750 --> 00:55:47,440
was it

1380
00:55:51,910 --> 00:55:49,760
you know because he thought he he was on

1381
00:55:54,870 --> 00:55:51,920
to something so

1382
00:55:59,349 --> 00:55:54,880
again was that dodie from the beginning

1383
00:56:01,750 --> 00:55:59,359
or did did paul actually have an uh some

1384
00:56:04,309 --> 00:56:01,760
type of encounter

1385
00:56:06,309 --> 00:56:04,319
well certainly at kirtland airport space

1386
00:56:08,069 --> 00:56:06,319
paul saw something and it's something

1387
00:56:10,309 --> 00:56:08,079
that you know made a experienced

1388
00:56:11,510 --> 00:56:10,319
engineer take notice and we don't know

1389
00:56:13,349 --> 00:56:11,520
what it is there's various theories

1390
00:56:15,030 --> 00:56:13,359
about what he saw but he saw something

1391
00:56:18,069 --> 00:56:15,040
to start with

1392
00:56:19,990 --> 00:56:18,079
um and i think doty and gang it then

1393
00:56:23,270 --> 00:56:20,000
exploited that

1394
00:56:25,670 --> 00:56:23,280
yeah and it's unclear i mean it's

1395
00:56:28,789 --> 00:56:25,680
possible that

1396
00:56:32,789 --> 00:56:28,799
whatever people say nobody really nobody

1397
00:56:35,430 --> 00:56:32,799
in outside of afosi anyway um

1398
00:56:37,430 --> 00:56:35,440
really knows exactly why

1399
00:56:38,950 --> 00:56:37,440
uh benowitz was targeted in the way

1400
00:56:41,109 --> 00:56:38,960
there was there are now

1401
00:56:43,190 --> 00:56:41,119
so four or five competing

1402
00:56:45,510 --> 00:56:43,200
theories and they

1403
00:56:49,270 --> 00:56:45,520
um you know and depending which story

1404
00:56:50,870 --> 00:56:49,280
you run with that's determined whether

1405
00:56:52,150 --> 00:56:50,880
uh benowitz

1406
00:56:55,349 --> 00:56:52,160
saw something that he shouldn't have

1407
00:56:57,190 --> 00:56:55,359
seen or as i suspect the things that he

1408
00:56:59,349 --> 00:56:57,200
saw were actually placed there for his

1409
00:57:01,430 --> 00:56:59,359
benefit for him to

1410
00:57:02,390 --> 00:57:01,440
they would they were baked essentially

1411
00:57:05,910 --> 00:57:02,400
he was

1412
00:57:08,789 --> 00:57:05,920
for exactly so that's i guess that takes

1413
00:57:11,190 --> 00:57:08,799
me right back to my question again so

1414
00:57:13,430 --> 00:57:11,200
what came first

1415
00:57:15,910 --> 00:57:13,440
so i guess mark you're saying you you

1416
00:57:17,589 --> 00:57:15,920
you kind of think uh

1417
00:57:19,430 --> 00:57:17,599
uh

1418
00:57:21,910 --> 00:57:19,440
that

1419
00:57:23,030 --> 00:57:21,920
his his events were placed there for him

1420
00:57:24,710 --> 00:57:23,040
to witness

1421
00:57:26,630 --> 00:57:24,720
but roland on the other side do you

1422
00:57:29,109 --> 00:57:26,640
think that he actually did see something

1423
00:57:31,270 --> 00:57:29,119
at kirkland and then that attracted

1424
00:57:33,349 --> 00:57:31,280
dodie and there's also two elements to

1425
00:57:35,030 --> 00:57:33,359
this at least two elements that he was

1426
00:57:36,710 --> 00:57:35,040
looking at things on the base he was

1427
00:57:38,549 --> 00:57:36,720
also picking up and this came slightly

1428
00:57:40,230 --> 00:57:38,559
later picking up transmissions right

1429
00:57:41,910 --> 00:57:40,240
with his receiving equipment right and

1430
00:57:44,150 --> 00:57:41,920
they may have been two very different

1431
00:57:46,630 --> 00:57:44,160
sorts of things and we suspect that the

1432
00:57:48,870 --> 00:57:46,640
nsa got very upset about him picking up

1433
00:57:50,870 --> 00:57:48,880
encoded coded transmissions from the

1434
00:57:52,390 --> 00:57:50,880
base right they may be something quite

1435
00:57:55,109 --> 00:57:52,400
different from the things he was seeing

1436
00:57:56,390 --> 00:57:55,119
yeah here's one his one possibility is

1437
00:57:57,510 --> 00:57:56,400
that

1438
00:57:58,549 --> 00:57:57,520
uh

1439
00:58:00,390 --> 00:57:58,559
he was

1440
00:58:02,230 --> 00:58:00,400
sort of baited with

1441
00:58:04,470 --> 00:58:02,240
flying lights of some sort that were

1442
00:58:06,309 --> 00:58:04,480
designed to attract his attention

1443
00:58:09,190 --> 00:58:06,319
and as a result of

1444
00:58:12,549 --> 00:58:09,200
his attention being caught in this way

1445
00:58:14,549 --> 00:58:12,559
he started directing his uh facilities

1446
00:58:17,030 --> 00:58:14,559
his capabilities at the base and then

1447
00:58:18,710 --> 00:58:17,040
accidentally started picking up the nsa

1448
00:58:21,510 --> 00:58:18,720
signals and that's what really got him

1449
00:58:22,950 --> 00:58:21,520
into into trouble right now i think

1450
00:58:25,670 --> 00:58:22,960
we're getting a little ahead of

1451
00:58:28,390 --> 00:58:25,680
ourselves so let's back up for a second

1452
00:58:31,109 --> 00:58:28,400
who was paul benowitz um i know that he

1453
00:58:31,990 --> 00:58:31,119
was a businessman what was he doing uh

1454
00:58:33,430 --> 00:58:32,000
uh

1455
00:58:35,829 --> 00:58:33,440
at that time

1456
00:58:38,630 --> 00:58:35,839
and what happened so let's what was the

1457
00:58:40,470 --> 00:58:38,640
paul bennowitz event first before dodie

1458
00:58:41,910 --> 00:58:40,480
comes in the picture what are we talking

1459
00:58:44,069 --> 00:58:41,920
about he was an engineer he had a

1460
00:58:45,990 --> 00:58:44,079
company called thunder scientific making

1461
00:58:47,430 --> 00:58:46,000
high-tech equipment i think it's to do

1462
00:58:50,470 --> 00:58:47,440
with humidity

1463
00:58:53,190 --> 00:58:50,480
uh measurement that he sold to

1464
00:58:54,870 --> 00:58:53,200
nasa the air force he was a it was his

1465
00:58:57,270 --> 00:58:54,880
company a very successful company and

1466
00:58:58,069 --> 00:58:57,280
his house was just by kirtland air force

1467
00:59:00,789 --> 00:58:58,079
base

1468
00:59:03,109 --> 00:59:00,799
he already had an interest in ufos

1469
00:59:04,870 --> 00:59:03,119
and he would watch the lights above

1470
00:59:06,069 --> 00:59:04,880
kirtland air force base

1471
00:59:07,510 --> 00:59:06,079
and he

1472
00:59:09,990 --> 00:59:07,520
uh and i think the thing to remember he

1473
00:59:12,630 --> 00:59:10,000
wasn't just a naive enthusiast he was an

1474
00:59:13,990 --> 00:59:12,640
experienced qualified engineer so he he

1475
00:59:16,150 --> 00:59:14,000
shouldn't know what he was looking at

1476
00:59:19,270 --> 00:59:16,160
and talking about and he saw something

1477
00:59:21,030 --> 00:59:19,280
that worried him about curtin air force

1478
00:59:23,190 --> 00:59:21,040
base and he contacted

1479
00:59:24,630 --> 00:59:23,200
the air force base and got in touch with

1480
00:59:26,549 --> 00:59:24,640
doty

1481
00:59:28,549 --> 00:59:26,559
he thought it was some security risk or

1482
00:59:31,349 --> 00:59:28,559
something that shouldn't be going on and

1483
00:59:33,349 --> 00:59:31,359
dodie dodie just happened to be the guy

1484
00:59:35,670 --> 00:59:33,359
and now this is according to dodie or

1485
00:59:38,549 --> 00:59:35,680
according to benowitz i don't know uh

1486
00:59:40,950 --> 00:59:38,559
but but dodie picked up the phone

1487
00:59:43,349 --> 00:59:40,960
no it's not quite he and benowitz

1488
00:59:47,109 --> 00:59:43,359
reported it to base security

1489
00:59:49,349 --> 00:59:47,119
and that's when afosi got involved and

1490
00:59:51,190 --> 00:59:49,359
that's how on some we don't obviously

1491
00:59:53,589 --> 00:59:51,200
know exactly what happened but

1492
00:59:56,390 --> 00:59:53,599
uh doty was selected as the contact

1493
00:59:59,030 --> 00:59:56,400
officer who would uh not alone he was

1494
01:00:01,670 --> 00:59:59,040
with uh a guy called ernest edwards i

1495
01:00:04,069 --> 01:00:01,680
think was was the sort of other contact

1496
01:00:05,990 --> 01:00:04,079
at the base for security there

1497
01:00:08,630 --> 01:00:06,000
and um

1498
01:00:10,630 --> 01:00:08,640
uh they sort of developed a relationship

1499
01:00:12,870 --> 01:00:10,640
with benowitz and doty so have

1500
01:00:17,510 --> 01:00:12,880
maintained that and from there

1501
01:00:19,829 --> 01:00:17,520
um things have grew but the thing um

1502
01:00:24,230 --> 01:00:19,839
it seems that benowitz first sort of

1503
01:00:27,670 --> 01:00:24,240
came onto afosi's radar uh

1504
01:00:28,549 --> 01:00:27,680
the year before when there was a um

1505
01:00:37,030 --> 01:00:28,559
a

1506
01:00:39,270 --> 01:00:37,040
uh

1507
01:00:42,950 --> 01:00:39,280
spoke about his ideas about ufos and

1508
01:00:46,069 --> 01:00:42,960
things there gabe valdez who is the uh

1509
01:00:48,069 --> 01:00:46,079
state trooper out in uh dulce new mexico

1510
01:00:49,670 --> 01:00:48,079
where the the mutilation of the

1511
01:00:50,549 --> 01:00:49,680
mutilations were taking place he was

1512
01:00:52,390 --> 01:00:50,559
there

1513
01:00:55,190 --> 01:00:52,400
and i think that's where

1514
01:00:57,589 --> 01:00:55,200
benowitz was identified and potentially

1515
01:01:00,230 --> 01:00:57,599
targeted for the first time as a

1516
01:01:02,470 --> 01:01:00,240
as a potential um

1517
01:01:05,589 --> 01:01:02,480
subject for for whatever operation this

1518
01:01:08,870 --> 01:01:05,599
was going to be did benowitz okay well

1519
01:01:11,030 --> 01:01:08,880
let's let's finish the a bridge

1520
01:01:12,789 --> 01:01:11,040
the abridged version of uh the bennewitz

1521
01:01:15,109 --> 01:01:12,799
story so um

1522
01:01:17,990 --> 01:01:15,119
dodie feeds him the uh a bunch of

1523
01:01:18,950 --> 01:01:18,000
disinformation and then

1524
01:01:24,630 --> 01:01:18,960
uh

1525
01:01:26,390 --> 01:01:24,640
and i think was it how many times how

1526
01:01:28,069 --> 01:01:26,400
many trips three

1527
01:01:29,990 --> 01:01:28,079
maybe four

1528
01:01:31,349 --> 01:01:30,000
times he was admitted to a mental

1529
01:01:33,750 --> 01:01:31,359
institution

1530
01:01:35,670 --> 01:01:33,760
i'm not sure i think it was just i think

1531
01:01:38,470 --> 01:01:35,680
just the one time that was much later on

1532
01:01:40,870 --> 01:01:38,480
in in the story so that was so five or

1533
01:01:43,589 --> 01:01:40,880
six years down the line

1534
01:01:46,390 --> 01:01:43,599
but but it's it's an important part of

1535
01:01:50,390 --> 01:01:46,400
the story and the reason for that is

1536
01:01:54,230 --> 01:01:50,400
did he have any mental issues that dodie

1537
01:01:56,230 --> 01:01:54,240
was aware of uh early on was there

1538
01:01:57,589 --> 01:01:56,240
why paul benowitz was it because

1539
01:02:00,230 --> 01:01:57,599
possibly

1540
01:02:04,150 --> 01:02:00,240
um he had mental problems that dodie was

1541
01:02:07,270 --> 01:02:04,160
aware of or not or did dodie cause the

1542
01:02:08,950 --> 01:02:07,280
mental breakdown i i don't think they i

1543
01:02:10,789 --> 01:02:08,960
personally i don't think

1544
01:02:13,510 --> 01:02:10,799
they would have targeted

1545
01:02:16,150 --> 01:02:13,520
uh bennett's if they'd known he was

1546
01:02:18,789 --> 01:02:16,160
susceptible to this kind of you know to

1547
01:02:20,549 --> 01:02:18,799
a breakdown in this way i personally i

1548
01:02:21,910 --> 01:02:20,559
think they

1549
01:02:23,829 --> 01:02:21,920
saw him

1550
01:02:25,990 --> 01:02:23,839
at this counter mutilation conference

1551
01:02:29,829 --> 01:02:26,000
and they saw that he was

1552
01:02:32,870 --> 01:02:29,839
very smart very vocal and was happy to

1553
01:02:34,470 --> 01:02:32,880
get up and talk about his beliefs

1554
01:02:36,230 --> 01:02:34,480
and a so confident

1555
01:02:38,390 --> 01:02:36,240
fashion to an audience i think that's

1556
01:02:40,230 --> 01:02:38,400
what they needed someone to act as a

1557
01:02:40,950 --> 01:02:40,240
mouthpiece for the material that they

1558
01:02:43,030 --> 01:02:40,960
were

1559
01:02:45,030 --> 01:02:43,040
uh so preparing

1560
01:02:46,549 --> 01:02:45,040
um so i think it's almost the opposite

1561
01:02:49,270 --> 01:02:46,559
they thought he would

1562
01:02:51,750 --> 01:02:49,280
probably be able to endure the operation

1563
01:02:53,670 --> 01:02:51,760
and would would sort of be able to to

1564
01:02:55,750 --> 01:02:53,680
weather it and that's why they selected

1565
01:02:58,710 --> 01:02:55,760
him now the big question is why didn't

1566
01:03:00,470 --> 01:02:58,720
they just tell benefits to keep quiet

1567
01:03:02,470 --> 01:03:00,480
and shut up he was a patriot he was a

1568
01:03:04,069 --> 01:03:02,480
you know he'd been in the military man

1569
01:03:06,549 --> 01:03:04,079
he respected the government why didn't

1570
01:03:08,230 --> 01:03:06,559
they just tell him to keep it to himself

1571
01:03:09,349 --> 01:03:08,240
this is high security stuff he stumbled

1572
01:03:11,270 --> 01:03:09,359
onto

1573
01:03:12,630 --> 01:03:11,280
but they didn't they encouraged him and

1574
01:03:15,109 --> 01:03:12,640
that's a big question that's where it

1575
01:03:17,670 --> 01:03:15,119
comes back to mark's point that this was

1576
01:03:19,990 --> 01:03:17,680
possibly an attempt to

1577
01:03:23,670 --> 01:03:20,000
destabilize the whole ufo movement

1578
01:03:27,349 --> 01:03:23,680
rather than just get at paul benowitz

1579
01:03:29,910 --> 01:03:27,359
if if dodie had uh in

1580
01:03:31,829 --> 01:03:29,920
his own experience with

1581
01:03:35,990 --> 01:03:31,839
extraterrestrials

1582
01:03:37,430 --> 01:03:36,000
um and he believed it in himself did he

1583
01:03:38,789 --> 01:03:37,440
ever feel

1584
01:03:40,069 --> 01:03:38,799
again i want to go back to the word

1585
01:03:41,349 --> 01:03:40,079
guilt

1586
01:03:44,789 --> 01:03:41,359
because

1587
01:03:47,349 --> 01:03:44,799
he he knew that they existed

1588
01:03:48,630 --> 01:03:47,359
according to dodie dude

1589
01:03:51,510 --> 01:03:48,640
the

1590
01:03:52,470 --> 01:03:51,520
uh did did dodie feel

1591
01:03:54,309 --> 01:03:52,480
uh

1592
01:03:56,870 --> 01:03:54,319
how do i

1593
01:03:58,870 --> 01:03:56,880
did he have a problem with both lying

1594
01:04:00,710 --> 01:03:58,880
and telling the truth

1595
01:04:02,390 --> 01:04:00,720
and and how does he

1596
01:04:04,870 --> 01:04:02,400
do you understand the question yeah i

1597
01:04:08,150 --> 01:04:04,880
think doty's remarkably adept at lying

1598
01:04:10,069 --> 01:04:08,160
and telling the truth simultaneously

1599
01:04:12,470 --> 01:04:10,079
he seems to be very good at doing that

1600
01:04:15,349 --> 01:04:12,480
um i don't think anything in the film

1601
01:04:19,349 --> 01:04:15,359
suggests that he felt

1602
01:04:22,309 --> 01:04:19,359
guilty in relation to knowing about et

1603
01:04:24,390 --> 01:04:22,319
contact in relation to paul benowitz he

1604
01:04:26,069 --> 01:04:24,400
seems to manage to sort of

1605
01:04:28,150 --> 01:04:26,079
have separate categories in his head

1606
01:04:30,789 --> 01:04:28,160
that's what he knows about this is his

1607
01:04:32,710 --> 01:04:30,799
job as a security officer to deceive

1608
01:04:34,390 --> 01:04:32,720
uh i i think that's a good question but

1609
01:04:37,029 --> 01:04:34,400
he seemed to be able to carry those two

1610
01:04:39,510 --> 01:04:37,039
contradictory things in his head

1611
01:04:41,829 --> 01:04:39,520
he compartmentalized i think is the

1612
01:04:45,349 --> 01:04:41,839
phrase yeah because i mean he's lying

1613
01:04:47,430 --> 01:04:45,359
against uh uh what he knows is true he's

1614
01:04:48,710 --> 01:04:47,440
telling the truth about what he knows is

1615
01:04:51,829 --> 01:04:48,720
a lie

1616
01:04:53,349 --> 01:04:51,839
and then both of those get flip-flopped

1617
01:04:55,750 --> 01:04:53,359
too as well

1618
01:04:57,670 --> 01:04:55,760
and i don't know how you

1619
01:04:59,510 --> 01:04:57,680
you know it's this life of walter mitty

1620
01:05:02,069 --> 01:04:59,520
kind of thing he is just

1621
01:05:05,190 --> 01:05:02,079
moving along i don't know how he kept

1622
01:05:07,430 --> 01:05:05,200
everything straight and it's it's a very

1623
01:05:09,270 --> 01:05:07,440
it's a very confusing thing with dodie

1624
01:05:10,789 --> 01:05:09,280
and and it's not only

1625
01:05:12,710 --> 01:05:10,799
benowitz and we're gonna stay on

1626
01:05:14,309 --> 01:05:12,720
benowitz right now but it's everything

1627
01:05:17,829 --> 01:05:14,319
else that he

1628
01:05:20,150 --> 01:05:17,839
started to uh reveal and spin out you

1629
01:05:22,630 --> 01:05:20,160
just don't know what was real and what

1630
01:05:25,190 --> 01:05:22,640
isn't even in his own mind i think you

1631
01:05:27,270 --> 01:05:25,200
also have to accept that doty's a good

1632
01:05:29,670 --> 01:05:27,280
storyteller and probably inflated his

1633
01:05:31,990 --> 01:05:29,680
own role in the proceedings so

1634
01:05:33,829 --> 01:05:32,000
he may have been a more minor character

1635
01:05:36,549 --> 01:05:33,839
than he likes to present

1636
01:05:38,549 --> 01:05:36,559
exactly and why not

1637
01:05:40,789 --> 01:05:38,559
you know i mean he's a great storyteller

1638
01:05:42,549 --> 01:05:40,799
so i think he wouldn't elaborate i mean

1639
01:05:44,069 --> 01:05:42,559
so he must i'm sure he elaborated his

1640
01:05:47,190 --> 01:05:44,079
stories because that's what storytellers

1641
01:05:49,349 --> 01:05:47,200
do could he could he i'm sorry to cut

1642
01:05:50,710 --> 01:05:49,359
you off again mark it seems to be my

1643
01:05:52,069 --> 01:05:50,720
habit

1644
01:05:55,190 --> 01:05:52,079
um but

1645
01:05:56,950 --> 01:05:55,200
could he take the stand in court or

1646
01:05:58,870 --> 01:05:56,960
would he just be

1647
01:06:01,109 --> 01:05:58,880
just torn apart

1648
01:06:03,750 --> 01:06:01,119
you know could he be used as a witness

1649
01:06:06,230 --> 01:06:03,760
in anything i don't think so

1650
01:06:07,990 --> 01:06:06,240
i mean there's got to be a conflict

1651
01:06:09,029 --> 01:06:08,000
you know even now it's clear that

1652
01:06:11,190 --> 01:06:09,039
there's

1653
01:06:14,789 --> 01:06:11,200
there is a conflict within

1654
01:06:16,950 --> 01:06:14,799
doty in that he knows

1655
01:06:18,390 --> 01:06:16,960
he knows a lot of things about the

1656
01:06:20,950 --> 01:06:18,400
operation about the other people

1657
01:06:22,870 --> 01:06:20,960
involved in the operation and in similar

1658
01:06:25,029 --> 01:06:22,880
operations that he

1659
01:06:26,309 --> 01:06:25,039
for very good reasons he still won't

1660
01:06:27,109 --> 01:06:26,319
talk about

1661
01:06:28,789 --> 01:06:27,119
um

1662
01:06:29,589 --> 01:06:28,799
so i wonder

1663
01:06:32,390 --> 01:06:29,599
uh

1664
01:06:34,950 --> 01:06:32,400
you know he at some point i'm hoping

1665
01:06:35,910 --> 01:06:34,960
he will take you know take to the stand

1666
01:06:37,990 --> 01:06:35,920
and and

1667
01:06:40,630 --> 01:06:38,000
and tell the whole story but at this

1668
01:06:42,710 --> 01:06:40,640
point he's bound by oaths that he took

1669
01:06:48,710 --> 01:06:42,720
when he you know joined the security

1670
01:06:53,109 --> 01:06:51,589
his story is quite consistent

1671
01:06:55,349 --> 01:06:53,119
although the story seems to be

1672
01:06:57,430 --> 01:06:55,359
contradictory he keeps to it

1673
01:06:59,990 --> 01:06:57,440
right right right right

1674
01:07:02,549 --> 01:07:00,000
well okay so so back let's let's stay on

1675
01:07:04,150 --> 01:07:02,559
this uh the the benowitz chain of events

1676
01:07:05,029 --> 01:07:04,160
so benowitz

1677
01:07:07,109 --> 01:07:05,039
then

1678
01:07:09,190 --> 01:07:07,119
starts to

1679
01:07:11,510 --> 01:07:09,200
uh record he's got some recording

1680
01:07:14,549 --> 01:07:11,520
equipment he's convinced

1681
01:07:18,230 --> 01:07:14,559
that he has got some type of

1682
01:07:20,549 --> 01:07:18,240
e.t communication going on uh between

1683
01:07:23,029 --> 01:07:20,559
kirkland air force base

1684
01:07:24,390 --> 01:07:23,039
dulce new mexico or i don't know if

1685
01:07:25,990 --> 01:07:24,400
dulce's involved yet hold on hold on

1686
01:07:28,150 --> 01:07:26,000
hold on

1687
01:07:31,270 --> 01:07:28,160
but we just have to say that the but the

1688
01:07:33,430 --> 01:07:31,280
fsi gave him the computer to pick up the

1689
01:07:35,109 --> 01:07:33,440
alien transmissions and this computer

1690
01:07:37,430 --> 01:07:35,119
seems to have some sort of software in

1691
01:07:38,630 --> 01:07:37,440
it to decode the transmission so he was

1692
01:07:41,109 --> 01:07:38,640
being fed

1693
01:07:43,750 --> 01:07:41,119
with stories from the aliens that the

1694
01:07:44,870 --> 01:07:43,760
afos either were feeding him so he

1695
01:07:46,789 --> 01:07:44,880
actually placed the computer in his

1696
01:07:48,950 --> 01:07:46,799
house and the rumor that circulated for

1697
01:07:52,390 --> 01:07:48,960
a long time never confirmed is that the

1698
01:07:54,870 --> 01:07:52,400
computer was delivered in person by

1699
01:07:56,069 --> 01:07:54,880
uh j allen heineck the

1700
01:07:59,270 --> 01:07:56,079
the sort of

1701
01:08:02,230 --> 01:07:59,280
the um godfather of conte of modern

1702
01:08:04,710 --> 01:08:02,240
ufology and uh this was like the almost

1703
01:08:06,470 --> 01:08:04,720
like the ultimate kind of confirmation

1704
01:08:08,789 --> 01:08:06,480
of benowitz's

1705
01:08:11,589 --> 01:08:08,799
importance in the in the ufo story to

1706
01:08:13,589 --> 01:08:11,599
have to have you know its founder almost

1707
01:08:14,789 --> 01:08:13,599
turn up and say you need this bit of

1708
01:08:17,590 --> 01:08:14,799
technology

1709
01:08:19,749 --> 01:08:17,600
and this is what i've always done

1710
01:08:21,510 --> 01:08:19,759
is i've always put myself in paul

1711
01:08:22,390 --> 01:08:21,520
benowitz's shoes

1712
01:08:28,390 --> 01:08:22,400
and

1713
01:08:30,709 --> 01:08:28,400
uh with not only these people but the

1714
01:08:33,510 --> 01:08:30,719
events that are going on out of kirkland

1715
01:08:35,110 --> 01:08:33,520
and these transmissions and the stuff

1716
01:08:37,510 --> 01:08:35,120
and just try to put yourself in his

1717
01:08:40,709 --> 01:08:37,520
shoes where it is probably the greatest

1718
01:08:44,390 --> 01:08:40,719
event in human history right and but you

1719
01:08:47,189 --> 01:08:44,400
it you uh nobody else is uh

1720
01:08:49,510 --> 01:08:47,199
the belief in this subject is nil

1721
01:08:51,349 --> 01:08:49,520
and and but you are witnessing it

1722
01:08:53,669 --> 01:08:51,359
firsthand i've always put myself in his

1723
01:08:54,630 --> 01:08:53,679
shoes and then suddenly

1724
01:08:58,870 --> 01:08:54,640
he

1725
01:09:02,789 --> 01:08:58,880
decoded

1726
01:09:04,229 --> 01:09:02,799
and he now finds out officially as as as

1727
01:09:05,349 --> 01:09:04,239
far as he is concerned there's no

1728
01:09:08,309 --> 01:09:05,359
question

1729
01:09:12,070 --> 01:09:08,319
that we are communicating with aliens

1730
01:09:15,110 --> 01:09:12,080
and so in his own mind i mean it is just

1731
01:09:18,309 --> 01:09:15,120
the most i can't imagine

1732
01:09:21,030 --> 01:09:18,319
being in his shoes at that moment and

1733
01:09:21,910 --> 01:09:21,040
then but in the end to turn out

1734
01:09:27,349 --> 01:09:21,920
uh

1735
01:09:29,829 --> 01:09:27,359
with absolutely i mean at the same time

1736
01:09:32,309 --> 01:09:29,839
he was going flying up with in a plane

1737
01:09:34,070 --> 01:09:32,319
with doty over alkaleta mesa

1738
01:09:35,829 --> 01:09:34,080
looking at stuff at the props they'd

1739
01:09:38,149 --> 01:09:35,839
actually put for him there

1740
01:09:40,149 --> 01:09:38,159
he was writing letters to

1741
01:09:41,749 --> 01:09:40,159
the president and to

1742
01:09:43,430 --> 01:09:41,759
to washington saying i've got this

1743
01:09:44,229 --> 01:09:43,440
information and they weren't interested

1744
01:09:46,309 --> 01:09:44,239
so

1745
01:09:47,829 --> 01:09:46,319
as greg bishop says in the film it's in

1746
01:09:49,430 --> 01:09:47,839
a case of cognitive dissonance there's

1747
01:09:51,189 --> 01:09:49,440
like one part of the

1748
01:09:53,269 --> 01:09:51,199
the government or the security forces

1749
01:09:55,270 --> 01:09:53,279
saying encouraging him the other part

1750
01:09:56,870 --> 01:09:55,280
don't want to know so his head is in

1751
01:09:58,470 --> 01:09:56,880
between these two different places and

1752
01:10:00,790 --> 01:09:58,480
if you put you know putting himself at

1753
01:10:03,830 --> 01:10:00,800
the center of that story that's

1754
01:10:05,830 --> 01:10:03,840
you know he because he knew he was a

1755
01:10:07,669 --> 01:10:05,840
good engine a very good engineer he knew

1756
01:10:10,790 --> 01:10:07,679
he understood technology he was a smart

1757
01:10:13,590 --> 01:10:10,800
guy he had been chosen he was the chosen

1758
01:10:15,350 --> 01:10:13,600
one you know to to

1759
01:10:18,390 --> 01:10:15,360
to share this information he was going

1760
01:10:20,229 --> 01:10:18,400
to be the prophet um you know and he was

1761
01:10:21,910 --> 01:10:20,239
he was being given this message and it's

1762
01:10:24,630 --> 01:10:21,920
very interesting

1763
01:10:27,110 --> 01:10:24,640
i don't know if you've seen these um

1764
01:10:30,310 --> 01:10:27,120
powerpoint presentations uh put together

1765
01:10:31,669 --> 01:10:30,320
by the british equivalent of the nsa the

1766
01:10:32,470 --> 01:10:31,679
gchq

1767
01:10:35,030 --> 01:10:32,480
that

1768
01:10:38,149 --> 01:10:35,040
are basically the kind of miragemen

1769
01:10:40,390 --> 01:10:38,159
uh handbook that has edward snowden

1770
01:10:42,630 --> 01:10:40,400
leaked recently yes um

1771
01:10:45,270 --> 01:10:42,640
but uh just looking at that you know one

1772
01:10:47,030 --> 01:10:45,280
of the principles that they kind of

1773
01:10:49,189 --> 01:10:47,040
pinpoint as being

1774
01:10:51,430 --> 01:10:49,199
essential in in a successful operation

1775
01:10:53,430 --> 01:10:51,440
is flattery and you know what greater

1776
01:10:55,990 --> 01:10:53,440
flattery could there be than saying we

1777
01:10:58,950 --> 01:10:56,000
have chosen you out of everyone on

1778
01:11:01,030 --> 01:10:58,960
planet earth or in america anyway to to

1779
01:11:05,830 --> 01:11:01,040
to reveal this information to the world

1780
01:11:06,630 --> 01:11:05,840
well and again if you put yourself in

1781
01:11:08,310 --> 01:11:06,640
in

1782
01:11:10,790 --> 01:11:08,320
uh benowitz's

1783
01:11:13,750 --> 01:11:10,800
position in his shoes like you said

1784
01:11:16,790 --> 01:11:13,760
profit the chosen one but he is

1785
01:11:17,910 --> 01:11:16,800
uh without a doubt convinced as he

1786
01:11:21,270 --> 01:11:17,920
should be

1787
01:11:22,550 --> 01:11:21,280
that everything is real i don't care how

1788
01:11:25,510 --> 01:11:22,560
stable

1789
01:11:28,070 --> 01:11:25,520
or how grounded you are

1790
01:11:30,550 --> 01:11:28,080
i'm pretty stable i'm pretty grounded

1791
01:11:31,590 --> 01:11:30,560
but i think i would go off the deep end

1792
01:11:34,149 --> 01:11:31,600
myself

1793
01:11:37,189 --> 01:11:34,159
and and i don't know how dodie kept it

1794
01:11:39,110 --> 01:11:37,199
together kept a straight face

1795
01:11:40,870 --> 01:11:39,120
because he's just lying all day long to

1796
01:11:43,430 --> 01:11:40,880
bend it was the entire thing is just

1797
01:11:46,070 --> 01:11:43,440
being fed and fed and fed and fed and he

1798
01:11:47,669 --> 01:11:46,080
kept a straight face just knowing he was

1799
01:11:49,030 --> 01:11:47,679
pushing this guy

1800
01:11:51,189 --> 01:11:49,040
because

1801
01:11:53,270 --> 01:11:51,199
maybe not intentionally but you are

1802
01:11:55,350 --> 01:11:53,280
certainly messing with somebody's head

1803
01:11:56,870 --> 01:11:55,360
to the extreme

1804
01:11:58,550 --> 01:11:56,880
yeah but that's what you're trying to do

1805
01:12:01,430 --> 01:11:58,560
and that's what the operation

1806
01:12:03,830 --> 01:12:01,440
requires and as a contact officer you

1807
01:12:05,669 --> 01:12:03,840
know your role is to nurture these

1808
01:12:08,070 --> 01:12:05,679
relationships and

1809
01:12:09,669 --> 01:12:08,080
shape them according to the requirements

1810
01:12:12,070 --> 01:12:09,679
of the operation and that's you know

1811
01:12:13,990 --> 01:12:12,080
that's that's what you have to do and um

1812
01:12:14,790 --> 01:12:14,000
i would imagine that

1813
01:12:17,030 --> 01:12:14,800
uh

1814
01:12:20,070 --> 01:12:17,040
this was in the grand scheme of things a

1815
01:12:23,430 --> 01:12:20,080
pretty low level sort of you know novice

1816
01:12:25,270 --> 01:12:23,440
operation for doty was was was a newbie

1817
01:12:28,149 --> 01:12:25,280
at this time and he was given what was

1818
01:12:29,350 --> 01:12:28,159
probably thought to be a fairly uh

1819
01:12:31,350 --> 01:12:29,360
straightforward

1820
01:12:34,070 --> 01:12:31,360
sort of uh responsibility and that's in

1821
01:12:35,990 --> 01:12:34,080
the film doty says i sat down to dinner

1822
01:12:37,990 --> 01:12:36,000
with paul later and said look paul this

1823
01:12:39,350 --> 01:12:38,000
is all an uh uh

1824
01:12:40,709 --> 01:12:39,360
an operation

1825
01:12:42,550 --> 01:12:40,719
we were

1826
01:12:45,669 --> 01:12:42,560
misleading and confusing you you know it

1827
01:12:48,310 --> 01:12:45,679
was it was a disinformation campaign and

1828
01:12:50,709 --> 01:12:48,320
and bennett says to doti don't lie to me

1829
01:12:53,990 --> 01:12:50,719
richard don't lie to me rick i know it

1830
01:13:00,870 --> 01:12:58,149
and back to your point mark um dude what

1831
01:13:04,390 --> 01:13:00,880
if if if this was some type of low level

1832
01:13:05,750 --> 01:13:04,400
campaign or or dodie's first or whatever

1833
01:13:07,669 --> 01:13:05,760
that means

1834
01:13:10,550 --> 01:13:07,679
and this is this is where it gets a

1835
01:13:12,550 --> 01:13:10,560
little bit crazy for everybody that

1836
01:13:14,950 --> 01:13:12,560
means there's somebody sitting around a

1837
01:13:15,990 --> 01:13:14,960
group of people sitting around a table

1838
01:13:18,390 --> 01:13:16,000
talking

1839
01:13:21,430 --> 01:13:18,400
about what they're working on

1840
01:13:23,350 --> 01:13:21,440
what their plans are what's next let's

1841
01:13:25,430 --> 01:13:23,360
and and there's some guy at the head of

1842
01:13:27,350 --> 01:13:25,440
the table you know somebody there's okay

1843
01:13:28,709 --> 01:13:27,360
who's got some good ideas

1844
01:13:31,430 --> 01:13:28,719
you first

1845
01:13:34,870 --> 01:13:31,440
what do you got you know what what what

1846
01:13:36,550 --> 01:13:34,880
crazy thing can we start next

1847
01:13:38,870 --> 01:13:36,560
this is actually

1848
01:13:40,630 --> 01:13:38,880
planned it's premeditated and there are

1849
01:13:44,310 --> 01:13:40,640
people out there

1850
01:13:46,709 --> 01:13:44,320
discussing disinformation plans back to

1851
01:13:49,910 --> 01:13:46,719
what you just said about snowden mark

1852
01:13:55,189 --> 01:13:49,920
this it's obvious that there is a strong

1853
01:13:56,310 --> 01:13:55,199
agenda dealing with just this subject

1854
01:14:00,950 --> 01:13:56,320
i would

1855
01:14:03,189 --> 01:14:00,960
this is one of the areas that they know

1856
01:14:05,350 --> 01:14:03,199
that they can work within that's sort of

1857
01:14:07,110 --> 01:14:05,360
as i say so one of the the flying source

1858
01:14:09,510 --> 01:14:07,120
of the ufo is one of the toys they can

1859
01:14:11,910 --> 01:14:09,520
pull out of the toy box depending on

1860
01:14:15,270 --> 01:14:11,920
what you know what's required of a

1861
01:14:17,590 --> 01:14:15,280
specific operation but in this instance

1862
01:14:20,070 --> 01:14:17,600
we don't know whether we know that doty

1863
01:14:23,510 --> 01:14:20,080
was part of a team we don't know whether

1864
01:14:25,750 --> 01:14:23,520
whose idea it was to target benowitz um

1865
01:14:27,270 --> 01:14:25,760
what piecing sort of through kind of

1866
01:14:29,270 --> 01:14:27,280
corroborative

1867
01:14:31,910 --> 01:14:29,280
uh circumstantial evidence you can sort

1868
01:14:34,550 --> 01:14:31,920
of piece a paper trail together that

1869
01:14:35,990 --> 01:14:34,560
involves uh his supervisor richard

1870
01:14:38,870 --> 01:14:36,000
weaver and then

1871
01:14:40,550 --> 01:14:38,880
the cat the guy who is the head of uh

1872
01:14:42,550 --> 01:14:40,560
security for the new

1873
01:14:43,430 --> 01:14:42,560
stealth program you at the time stealth

1874
01:14:45,750 --> 01:14:43,440
program

1875
01:14:48,390 --> 01:14:45,760
uh barry hennessey and i think that's

1876
01:14:51,270 --> 01:14:48,400
the kind of chain of command within

1877
01:14:52,870 --> 01:14:51,280
afosi that was putting this together and

1878
01:14:56,310 --> 01:14:52,880
rick doty was

1879
01:14:58,070 --> 01:14:56,320
you know was he was young he was

1880
01:15:00,630 --> 01:14:58,080
he was you know i don't think he was one

1881
01:15:03,590 --> 01:15:00,640
of the architects but he was gradually

1882
01:15:05,590 --> 01:15:03,600
as he was feeding information back from

1883
01:15:07,669 --> 01:15:05,600
from paul benowitz from later william

1884
01:15:10,390 --> 01:15:07,679
moore then he became more involved in

1885
01:15:11,910 --> 01:15:10,400
shaping the way the operation kind of

1886
01:15:12,950 --> 01:15:11,920
unfolded

1887
01:15:15,669 --> 01:15:12,960
um

1888
01:15:18,070 --> 01:15:15,679
but yes they were we we don't know

1889
01:15:20,390 --> 01:15:18,080
exactly who they were but we know that

1890
01:15:23,669 --> 01:15:20,400
certain people were involved and their

1891
01:15:26,310 --> 01:15:23,679
heads kind of pop up later on

1892
01:15:28,550 --> 01:15:26,320
of the great ironies is that uh richard

1893
01:15:30,070 --> 01:15:28,560
weaver who was uh doty's sovereign

1894
01:15:33,830 --> 01:15:30,080
immediate boss

1895
01:15:35,430 --> 01:15:33,840
uh wrote the 1995 air force report on on

1896
01:15:36,830 --> 01:15:35,440
roswell which i always think is one of

1897
01:15:38,550 --> 01:15:36,840
the grand

1898
01:15:39,830 --> 01:15:38,560
ironies

1899
01:15:41,669 --> 01:15:39,840
i know

1900
01:15:45,350 --> 01:15:41,679
um

1901
01:15:47,910 --> 01:15:45,360
let's finish up with paul but how

1902
01:15:50,310 --> 01:15:47,920
excuse me need to hit that cough button

1903
01:15:53,350 --> 01:15:50,320
how did linda molten how

1904
01:15:55,910 --> 01:15:53,360
uh get involved with richard doty in the

1905
01:15:58,149 --> 01:15:55,920
middle of all of this cattle mutilation

1906
01:16:00,149 --> 01:15:58,159
stuff that was going on and then let's

1907
01:16:00,950 --> 01:16:00,159
tie into

1908
01:16:03,590 --> 01:16:00,960
uh

1909
01:16:05,990 --> 01:16:03,600
how dulce fix in to the picture oh by

1910
01:16:07,430 --> 01:16:06,000
the way i wanted to let everybody know

1911
01:16:09,590 --> 01:16:07,440
there are if you go over to

1912
01:16:12,709 --> 01:16:09,600
jimmychurchradio.com

1913
01:16:16,229 --> 01:16:12,719
uh there is a a complete gallery of

1914
01:16:16,910 --> 01:16:16,239
stills from miragemen on the home page

1915
01:16:20,470 --> 01:16:16,920
of

1916
01:16:23,669 --> 01:16:20,480
jimmychurchradio.com and there are uh uh

1917
01:16:26,709 --> 01:16:23,679
a couple of pictures there i assume are

1918
01:16:29,430 --> 01:16:26,719
the radio antenna uh on the top of the

1919
01:16:30,390 --> 01:16:29,440
mountain in uh in dulce is that what

1920
01:16:33,510 --> 01:16:30,400
that is

1921
01:16:36,070 --> 01:16:33,520
i think so we do have some shots of

1922
01:16:38,470 --> 01:16:36,080
like i can't remember um

1923
01:16:40,790 --> 01:16:38,480
we certainly shot we did go out to dulce

1924
01:16:42,390 --> 01:16:40,800
and and shot there which is an incred

1925
01:16:44,709 --> 01:16:42,400
absolutely beautiful

1926
01:16:46,229 --> 01:16:44,719
place and we went out there with greg

1927
01:16:49,270 --> 01:16:46,239
bishop and

1928
01:16:53,189 --> 01:16:49,280
um spoke to some some of the um

1929
01:16:55,030 --> 01:16:53,199
some of the people who live there but um

1930
01:16:57,510 --> 01:16:55,040
we weren't able to get up on to

1931
01:16:59,669 --> 01:16:57,520
arcolator mesa itself no one's allowed

1932
01:17:04,310 --> 01:16:59,679
up there anymore unfortunately but right

1933
01:17:05,189 --> 01:17:04,320
well um i had norio hayakawa on the show

1934
01:17:11,590 --> 01:17:05,199
and

1935
01:17:13,590 --> 01:17:11,600
he well i asked him the same question

1936
01:17:17,270 --> 01:17:13,600
i'm gonna ask you and

1937
01:17:20,550 --> 01:17:17,280
uh right now when you were out at dulce

1938
01:17:24,550 --> 01:17:20,560
did you it did you see anything

1939
01:17:26,070 --> 01:17:24,560
strange as far as uh entrances into the

1940
01:17:27,510 --> 01:17:26,080
mountain did you see any vehicles

1941
01:17:30,070 --> 01:17:27,520
driving around did you see any

1942
01:17:32,550 --> 01:17:30,080
helicopters any military equipment any

1943
01:17:34,630 --> 01:17:32,560
fences was there anything indicating

1944
01:17:37,110 --> 01:17:34,640
that there could be a facility there

1945
01:17:40,550 --> 01:17:37,120
these pictures here of these antenna

1946
01:17:43,510 --> 01:17:40,560
uh these radio towers uh this is

1947
01:17:46,550 --> 01:17:43,520
this is about all there is were you

1948
01:17:49,110 --> 01:17:46,560
uh public i should say were you able to

1949
01:17:51,110 --> 01:17:49,120
see anything that uh raised an eyebrow

1950
01:17:53,669 --> 01:17:51,120
no unfortunately as as i was saying we

1951
01:17:56,390 --> 01:17:53,679
weren't able to get up onto the up onto

1952
01:17:59,350 --> 01:17:56,400
the uh mesa itself we were just so down

1953
01:18:00,709 --> 01:17:59,360
in the town so we i i can tell you an

1954
01:18:03,510 --> 01:18:00,719
amazing

1955
01:18:05,110 --> 01:18:03,520
story quickly that happened to myself

1956
01:18:05,910 --> 01:18:05,120
and greg bishop while we were there

1957
01:18:06,790 --> 01:18:05,920
which

1958
01:18:09,030 --> 01:18:06,800
um

1959
01:18:12,470 --> 01:18:09,040
has nothing to do with uh

1960
01:18:15,590 --> 01:18:12,480
with castle mutilations or ufos but um

1961
01:18:17,189 --> 01:18:15,600
it's to do with uh

1962
01:18:18,709 --> 01:18:17,199
weather control and magic if you're

1963
01:18:19,590 --> 01:18:18,719
interested but

1964
01:18:26,870 --> 01:18:19,600
um

1965
01:18:29,590 --> 01:18:26,880
some of the uh sort of uh local indians

1966
01:18:31,830 --> 01:18:29,600
who live there and um

1967
01:18:34,149 --> 01:18:31,840
they had never seen anything strange up

1968
01:18:36,550 --> 01:18:34,159
there and they were they were generally

1969
01:18:39,990 --> 01:18:36,560
kind of dismissive of all the stories

1970
01:18:41,990 --> 01:18:40,000
but bear in mind these stories are now

1971
01:18:43,430 --> 01:18:42,000
nearly 40 years old so

1972
01:18:45,669 --> 01:18:43,440
um

1973
01:18:47,189 --> 01:18:45,679
people may not may no longer talk about

1974
01:18:49,350 --> 01:18:47,199
it but

1975
01:18:51,990 --> 01:18:49,360
i'm gonna say this really quick i'm

1976
01:18:55,669 --> 01:18:52,000
clicking through the gallery uh this the

1977
01:18:59,110 --> 01:18:55,679
the first picture is uh the

1978
01:19:02,229 --> 01:18:59,120
the still roland of uh richard dodie the

1979
01:19:04,390 --> 01:19:02,239
close-up of him now this is

1980
01:19:05,990 --> 01:19:04,400
you guys filming him

1981
01:19:07,430 --> 01:19:06,000
right is that what this is this is a

1982
01:19:09,590 --> 01:19:07,440
still from what i think that was the

1983
01:19:11,189 --> 01:19:09,600
first shot you did of doty that big

1984
01:19:13,030 --> 01:19:11,199
close-up looking oh yeah

1985
01:19:14,790 --> 01:19:13,040
yeah yeah yeah

1986
01:19:18,630 --> 01:19:14,800
i i i

1987
01:19:21,110 --> 01:19:18,640
i i'm telling you looking into his eyes

1988
01:19:23,350 --> 01:19:21,120
is one of the most bizarre

1989
01:19:24,709 --> 01:19:23,360
just knowing what what what is in this

1990
01:19:26,070 --> 01:19:24,719
guy's past

1991
01:19:34,709 --> 01:19:26,080
and

1992
01:19:36,870 --> 01:19:34,719
make of this guy did you tell you jimmy

1993
01:19:40,630 --> 01:19:36,880
i've looked at the material of richard

1994
01:19:43,430 --> 01:19:40,640
doty 20 30 50 100 times and he he still

1995
01:19:45,590 --> 01:19:43,440
fascinates me and i still can't get to

1996
01:19:49,590 --> 01:19:45,600
the bottom of him you know

1997
01:19:51,430 --> 01:19:49,600
is he is he uh is it off camera is he a

1998
01:19:54,310 --> 01:19:51,440
likable guy

1999
01:19:57,590 --> 01:19:54,320
very much so john and i spent

2000
01:19:59,350 --> 01:19:57,600
almost a whole week with him sort of

2001
01:20:00,709 --> 01:19:59,360
spent most of each day for a week with

2002
01:20:02,550 --> 01:20:00,719
him and became

2003
01:20:04,149 --> 01:20:02,560
we felt very firm friends with him and

2004
01:20:06,630 --> 01:20:04,159
stayed in touch with him afterwards we

2005
01:20:07,750 --> 01:20:06,640
saw him again on our second trip to the

2006
01:20:08,709 --> 01:20:07,760
states

2007
01:20:10,470 --> 01:20:08,719
um

2008
01:20:12,229 --> 01:20:10,480
he's extremely likable and you just have

2009
01:20:13,110 --> 01:20:12,239
to get used to

2010
01:20:16,630 --> 01:20:13,120
the

2011
01:20:19,510 --> 01:20:16,640
um

2012
01:20:20,790 --> 01:20:19,520
so almost sort of go into a

2013
01:20:22,950 --> 01:20:20,800
separate

2014
01:20:24,790 --> 01:20:22,960
state of uh consciousness and start

2015
01:20:27,430 --> 01:20:24,800
telling these incredible

2016
01:20:28,709 --> 01:20:27,440
stories and over time you start to

2017
01:20:30,229 --> 01:20:28,719
learn that

2018
01:20:33,910 --> 01:20:30,239
they're not real they're

2019
01:20:36,310 --> 01:20:33,920
okay okay okay okay okay exactly let me

2020
01:20:38,870 --> 01:20:36,320
ask the question first mark okay because

2021
01:20:41,669 --> 01:20:38,880
you just answered it for me

2022
01:20:42,870 --> 01:20:41,679
but is this so you guys uh you know

2023
01:20:43,910 --> 01:20:42,880
you're hanging out for a week which

2024
01:20:45,910 --> 01:20:43,920
means

2025
01:20:47,830 --> 01:20:45,920
breakfast lunch dinner you're working

2026
01:20:49,350 --> 01:20:47,840
together working relationship

2027
01:20:51,750 --> 01:20:49,360
did you guys knock back a couple of

2028
01:20:54,950 --> 01:20:51,760
pints and did did you guys ever get like

2029
01:20:57,350 --> 01:20:54,960
comfortable uh you know uh

2030
01:21:00,149 --> 01:20:57,360
monoimano kind of situation where you

2031
01:21:02,229 --> 01:21:00,159
know you're getting into another zone

2032
01:21:04,390 --> 01:21:02,239
that's a yes or no question and then i'm

2033
01:21:06,790 --> 01:21:04,400
gonna ask my next one yeah we did okay

2034
01:21:09,830 --> 01:21:06,800
all right so

2035
01:21:11,350 --> 01:21:09,840
tell me the one story

2036
01:21:12,790 --> 01:21:11,360
because i know

2037
01:21:13,510 --> 01:21:12,800
i know

2038
01:21:17,669 --> 01:21:13,520
he

2039
01:21:19,590 --> 01:21:17,679
told you know fascinating stuff

2040
01:21:21,669 --> 01:21:19,600
okay can he share can you share one with

2041
01:21:23,270 --> 01:21:21,679
us sorry the one story he told us which

2042
01:21:24,709 --> 01:21:23,280
was the one night we had a drink with

2043
01:21:26,390 --> 01:21:24,719
him and that he

2044
01:21:29,189 --> 01:21:26,400
drank with us

2045
01:21:31,830 --> 01:21:29,199
uh he told us about how he'd

2046
01:21:35,030 --> 01:21:31,840
uh handled and operated

2047
01:21:36,790 --> 01:21:35,040
uh an extraterrestrial

2048
01:21:38,870 --> 01:21:36,800
ipad as what he was essentially

2049
01:21:41,270 --> 01:21:38,880
describing this was before we were

2050
01:21:43,189 --> 01:21:41,280
talking to him before ipads had sort of

2051
01:21:45,990 --> 01:21:43,199
appeared but he was talking about a kind

2052
01:21:48,870 --> 01:21:46,000
of holographic crystal device that had

2053
01:21:51,510 --> 01:21:48,880
been uh given to us by

2054
01:21:54,470 --> 01:21:51,520
by the aliens and he had handled it and

2055
01:21:56,390 --> 01:21:54,480
that was the point at which i called

2056
01:21:57,669 --> 01:21:56,400
uh bs on him

2057
01:21:59,910 --> 01:21:57,679
and uh

2058
01:22:00,950 --> 01:21:59,920
and his response was genuine he was

2059
01:22:03,270 --> 01:22:00,960
actually

2060
01:22:05,189 --> 01:22:03,280
i bel i believed that he believed he'd

2061
01:22:07,750 --> 01:22:05,199
handled it the way he responded to me

2062
01:22:10,629 --> 01:22:07,760
was and that really threw me that that

2063
01:22:12,790 --> 01:22:10,639
that it's throwing me right now okay so

2064
01:22:16,310 --> 01:22:12,800
then what how did he

2065
01:22:18,470 --> 01:22:16,320
you said it was before the ipad era

2066
01:22:21,910 --> 01:22:18,480
this was 2005.

2067
01:22:25,830 --> 01:22:21,920
okay before the ipad uh ipad i might

2068
01:22:27,510 --> 01:22:25,840
have said ipod ipad uh how did he

2069
01:22:30,149 --> 01:22:27,520
describe it

2070
01:22:33,110 --> 01:22:30,159
he described it as a kind of flat kind

2071
01:22:34,470 --> 01:22:33,120
of crystalline solid state

2072
01:22:36,070 --> 01:22:34,480
um

2073
01:22:37,430 --> 01:22:36,080
sort of tablet

2074
01:22:40,070 --> 01:22:37,440
essentially it's hard not to use the

2075
01:22:41,590 --> 01:22:40,080
word now but right uh and that you'd

2076
01:22:44,070 --> 01:22:41,600
press a button then a kind of three

2077
01:22:45,990 --> 01:22:44,080
dimensional image would emerge and it

2078
01:22:47,990 --> 01:22:46,000
would communicate with you

2079
01:22:49,430 --> 01:22:48,000
in whatever language you spoke almost

2080
01:22:51,830 --> 01:22:49,440
telepathically

2081
01:22:54,550 --> 01:22:51,840
uh it was you know it was a very far out

2082
01:22:56,470 --> 01:22:54,560
uh story um and i

2083
01:22:58,149 --> 01:22:56,480
like i said i said

2084
01:23:01,030 --> 01:22:58,159
you're you're you know you're pulling

2085
01:23:03,430 --> 01:23:01,040
our legs and he he was upset when i

2086
01:23:05,990 --> 01:23:03,440
suggested that he was lying to us and

2087
01:23:08,149 --> 01:23:06,000
that was the emotion was genuine his his

2088
01:23:09,669 --> 01:23:08,159
response was very genuine he was he

2089
01:23:11,750 --> 01:23:09,679
there's a possibility with dodie he's

2090
01:23:13,270 --> 01:23:11,760
become so adept at deception he's

2091
01:23:14,870 --> 01:23:13,280
deceived himself

2092
01:23:17,189 --> 01:23:14,880
but so you're saying that he was

2093
01:23:18,310 --> 01:23:17,199
straight facing it he was looking right

2094
01:23:20,870 --> 01:23:18,320
at you

2095
01:23:23,189 --> 01:23:20,880
yeah and he was up i could see that he

2096
01:23:25,910 --> 01:23:23,199
was emotionally you know he was upset

2097
01:23:28,149 --> 01:23:25,920
that i was calling him out on it and

2098
01:23:30,310 --> 01:23:28,159
and i felt that i actually at that point

2099
01:23:31,990 --> 01:23:30,320
felt that he believed the story he was

2100
01:23:34,709 --> 01:23:32,000
telling us

2101
01:23:36,709 --> 01:23:34,719
i i need to get him on this show

2102
01:23:41,750 --> 01:23:36,719
you you should please do

2103
01:23:44,070 --> 01:23:41,760
uh yeah text me his uh his number

2104
01:23:45,750 --> 01:23:44,080
i gotta get it i have to say we haven't

2105
01:23:46,950 --> 01:23:45,760
although we had a great relationship

2106
01:23:48,629 --> 01:23:46,960
with rick

2107
01:23:51,189 --> 01:23:48,639
you know when we made when we were

2108
01:23:53,750 --> 01:23:51,199
putting the film together that was

2109
01:23:54,550 --> 01:23:53,760
i've heard nothing from him since 2010

2110
01:23:56,550 --> 01:23:54,560
when

2111
01:23:58,709 --> 01:23:56,560
he has the final word in the book and

2112
01:24:00,629 --> 01:23:58,719
that was the last time i heard from him

2113
01:24:02,870 --> 01:24:00,639
has he seen so he hasn't seen the

2114
01:24:04,709 --> 01:24:02,880
documentary he hasn't seen the final cut

2115
01:24:07,030 --> 01:24:04,719
we last saw him on tv

2116
01:24:09,910 --> 01:24:07,040
as a traffic cop there was a local news

2117
01:24:11,910 --> 01:24:09,920
reporter which is his day job yeah but

2118
01:24:14,229 --> 01:24:11,920
um we don't know if you've seen the film

2119
01:24:16,149 --> 01:24:14,239
it's possible yeah we

2120
01:24:19,110 --> 01:24:16,159
we would like we would love nothing more

2121
01:24:21,189 --> 01:24:19,120
than to be screening the film in

2122
01:24:22,870 --> 01:24:21,199
albuquerque or

2123
01:24:24,310 --> 01:24:22,880
richard yeah

2124
01:24:26,149 --> 01:24:24,320
absolutely that would be our dream and

2125
01:24:26,950 --> 01:24:26,159
you know we would love that to happen

2126
01:24:29,030 --> 01:24:26,960
but

2127
01:24:31,510 --> 01:24:29,040
it's unlikely i suspect

2128
01:24:36,149 --> 01:24:31,520
huh really

2129
01:24:42,629 --> 01:24:38,709
my feeling i mean honestly

2130
01:24:45,030 --> 01:24:42,639
i think the problem is that you know the

2131
01:24:46,790 --> 01:24:45,040
going to becoming a public figure within

2132
01:24:49,590 --> 01:24:46,800
the ufo community

2133
01:24:51,910 --> 01:24:49,600
again may have created uh frictions and

2134
01:24:54,229 --> 01:24:51,920
tensions with his day job in the in the

2135
01:24:56,070 --> 01:24:54,239
police in new mexico so i think that's

2136
01:24:57,189 --> 01:24:56,080
that's probably why we stopped hearing

2137
01:24:59,590 --> 01:24:57,199
from him

2138
01:25:02,070 --> 01:24:59,600
is linda molten howe

2139
01:25:04,709 --> 01:25:02,080
angry

2140
01:25:06,870 --> 01:25:04,719
probably possibly uh

2141
01:25:08,550 --> 01:25:06,880
she's an amazing i have to say she's an

2142
01:25:11,669 --> 01:25:08,560
amazing woman and i have

2143
01:25:14,229 --> 01:25:11,679
utmost respect for her

2144
01:25:16,550 --> 01:25:14,239
even if we don't agree on um

2145
01:25:17,430 --> 01:25:16,560
most things relating to the ufo subject

2146
01:25:19,270 --> 01:25:17,440
but

2147
01:25:21,350 --> 01:25:19,280
uh we don't know we have we haven't

2148
01:25:23,270 --> 01:25:21,360
spoken to her but her

2149
01:25:27,030 --> 01:25:23,280
her appearance in the film is a tour de

2150
01:25:30,149 --> 01:25:27,040
force it's like the absolute

2151
01:25:32,229 --> 01:25:30,159
she's incredible and um you know that

2152
01:25:34,070 --> 01:25:32,239
nothing nobody would ever doubt her

2153
01:25:37,270 --> 01:25:34,080
conviction and her

2154
01:25:39,350 --> 01:25:37,280
drive and her you know dedication to to

2155
01:25:42,310 --> 01:25:39,360
what she believes in and that's gotta be

2156
01:25:43,830 --> 01:25:42,320
you know you you can't uh fault that on

2157
01:25:45,669 --> 01:25:43,840
any level but of course as you're

2158
01:25:48,229 --> 01:25:45,679
probably aware she's opposed to some of

2159
01:25:50,470 --> 01:25:48,239
the fundamental ideas in the film

2160
01:25:54,390 --> 01:25:50,480
you know she believes paul bennett was

2161
01:25:56,950 --> 01:25:54,400
seeing strange probably alien craft and

2162
01:25:58,870 --> 01:25:56,960
rather than that being a cover for

2163
01:26:01,110 --> 01:25:58,880
military technology she thinks it's the

2164
01:26:03,350 --> 01:26:01,120
other way around well but see that's

2165
01:26:04,470 --> 01:26:03,360
that's the beauty of

2166
01:26:06,470 --> 01:26:04,480
uh

2167
01:26:08,550 --> 01:26:06,480
the deception here

2168
01:26:11,510 --> 01:26:08,560
that's exactly it you've hit the nail on

2169
01:26:13,270 --> 01:26:11,520
the head we don't know what's what what

2170
01:26:17,189 --> 01:26:13,280
what's real and what's not

2171
01:26:18,709 --> 01:26:17,199
and so if the the deception campaign

2172
01:26:20,870 --> 01:26:18,719
is working

2173
01:26:23,030 --> 01:26:20,880
because you have somebody like linda

2174
01:26:24,629 --> 01:26:23,040
molten how there are plenty of people

2175
01:26:27,110 --> 01:26:24,639
out there that will

2176
01:26:29,430 --> 01:26:27,120
testify to the fact that

2177
01:26:30,550 --> 01:26:29,440
uh that's part of the deception they

2178
01:26:33,830 --> 01:26:30,560
they

2179
01:26:36,629 --> 01:26:33,840
you know because those are really are

2180
01:26:39,510 --> 01:26:36,639
alien craft well you know

2181
01:26:42,390 --> 01:26:39,520
it's it's it's brilliant and it's it's

2182
01:26:44,470 --> 01:26:42,400
kind of like time travel

2183
01:26:46,950 --> 01:26:44,480
and and stay with me it's kind of like

2184
01:26:49,510 --> 01:26:46,960
the time travel concept if somebody's

2185
01:26:52,470 --> 01:26:49,520
saying that they're a time traveler

2186
01:26:54,870 --> 01:26:52,480
um and they're from another timeline and

2187
01:26:57,110 --> 01:26:54,880
they're back here and

2188
01:26:58,950 --> 01:26:57,120
what what happens today doesn't really

2189
01:27:00,709 --> 01:26:58,960
matter because it's in another timeline

2190
01:27:02,950 --> 01:27:00,719
so whatever they say doesn't really

2191
01:27:05,430 --> 01:27:02,960
affect what's going on in the future

2192
01:27:06,790 --> 01:27:05,440
it's the cover story

2193
01:27:08,070 --> 01:27:06,800
for

2194
01:27:09,830 --> 01:27:08,080
uh

2195
01:27:12,709 --> 01:27:09,840
for for them

2196
01:27:15,830 --> 01:27:12,719
in that you don't know it's it's it's

2197
01:27:19,510 --> 01:27:15,840
their out card and it's the out card

2198
01:27:22,310 --> 01:27:19,520
here with uh with with benowitz and with

2199
01:27:24,790 --> 01:27:22,320
with dodie with linda moulton howe it's

2200
01:27:27,189 --> 01:27:24,800
not her out card but she believes what

2201
01:27:29,110 --> 01:27:27,199
she believes and she will always

2202
01:27:30,229 --> 01:27:29,120
be able to say well that's part of the

2203
01:27:33,189 --> 01:27:30,239
deception

2204
01:27:34,709 --> 01:27:33,199
and and you know what is happening is

2205
01:27:36,629 --> 01:27:34,719
real they're going to tell you that it's

2206
01:27:38,870 --> 01:27:36,639
not and now they have a guy over here

2207
01:27:41,750 --> 01:27:38,880
that they've lied to do you understand

2208
01:27:44,149 --> 01:27:41,760
what i'm saying yeah it is absolutely

2209
01:27:46,950 --> 01:27:44,159
brilliant and and no but you just don't

2210
01:27:49,590 --> 01:27:46,960
know what's true and what's not and so

2211
01:27:52,070 --> 01:27:49,600
much of it really is true

2212
01:27:53,910 --> 01:27:52,080
i mean in that we know that dodie did

2213
01:27:55,510 --> 01:27:53,920
what he did we know that paul benowitz

2214
01:27:57,189 --> 01:27:55,520
said what he said we know that linda

2215
01:27:59,910 --> 01:27:57,199
molten howe was involved we know that

2216
01:28:03,590 --> 01:27:59,920
dulce is there we know that uh you know

2217
01:28:05,750 --> 01:28:03,600
it's a real place and and it's the whole

2218
01:28:07,910 --> 01:28:05,760
the whole thing there's so much truth to

2219
01:28:09,590 --> 01:28:07,920
it you don't know what is untrue and

2220
01:28:12,870 --> 01:28:09,600
then the end i think what we do know is

2221
01:28:14,470 --> 01:28:12,880
the government is deceiving us but what

2222
01:28:16,870 --> 01:28:14,480
they're deceiving us about

2223
01:28:19,430 --> 01:28:16,880
is the big question exactly it's

2224
01:28:22,070 --> 01:28:19,440
brilliant and the this

2225
01:28:25,750 --> 01:28:22,080
you know the the uh deception over 60

2226
01:28:28,390 --> 01:28:25,760
years has been so successful that it now

2227
01:28:30,470 --> 01:28:28,400
has a life of its own as uh bob durant

2228
01:28:31,990 --> 01:28:30,480
and one of the great uh

2229
01:28:34,870 --> 01:28:32,000
subjects that we interviewed for the

2230
01:28:38,229 --> 01:28:34,880
film says you know the ufo is a machine

2231
01:28:40,790 --> 01:28:38,239
with a mind of its own and the ufo story

2232
01:28:43,510 --> 01:28:40,800
has has kind of become bigger than

2233
01:28:45,510 --> 01:28:43,520
anything that we can control that

2234
01:28:47,669 --> 01:28:45,520
the intelligence agencies or the

2235
01:28:50,629 --> 01:28:47,679
military can control it's it's it's

2236
01:28:53,510 --> 01:28:50,639
alive it's frankenstein's monster was

2237
01:28:55,030 --> 01:28:53,520
that siren on your guy's end that was

2238
01:28:56,550 --> 01:28:55,040
yeah yeah yeah

2239
01:28:59,189 --> 01:28:56,560
yeah that was a long

2240
01:29:00,390 --> 01:28:59,199
you know i'm in a completely soundproof

2241
01:29:02,149 --> 01:29:00,400
studio

2242
01:29:04,709 --> 01:29:02,159
and it was really loud and i just

2243
01:29:07,910 --> 01:29:04,719
thought man there's somebody

2244
01:29:11,830 --> 01:29:07,920
literally here they come they're here

2245
01:29:14,470 --> 01:29:11,840
um okay so now let's let's uh how did

2246
01:29:16,790 --> 01:29:14,480
linda molten how get sucked into this

2247
01:29:17,990 --> 01:29:16,800
entire uh

2248
01:29:20,629 --> 01:29:18,000
i know that she was already

2249
01:29:23,110 --> 01:29:20,639
investigating out there or did she

2250
01:29:24,950 --> 01:29:23,120
get pulled in because of bennowitz she

2251
01:29:26,709 --> 01:29:24,960
was working with peter gerstin the

2252
01:29:27,590 --> 01:29:26,719
lawyer who

2253
01:29:29,030 --> 01:29:27,600
for

2254
01:29:30,149 --> 01:29:29,040
chaos

2255
01:29:32,550 --> 01:29:30,159
yes

2256
01:29:34,709 --> 01:29:32,560
investigating citizens against ufo

2257
01:29:38,390 --> 01:29:34,719
secrets secrecy

2258
01:29:42,310 --> 01:29:38,400
uh she was he told linda that

2259
01:29:45,430 --> 01:29:42,320
doty had names and information on

2260
01:29:47,990 --> 01:29:45,440
alien and actual alien contact

2261
01:29:52,790 --> 01:29:48,000
um she was preparing a documentary on

2262
01:29:56,629 --> 01:29:54,229
to get information from him and that's

2263
01:29:58,790 --> 01:29:56,639
how she got sucked into his web

2264
01:30:00,709 --> 01:29:58,800
mark i'll say it again you can't whisper

2265
01:30:03,830 --> 01:30:00,719
he can't whisper bro

2266
01:30:09,510 --> 01:30:06,870
okay so that's right uh now that the uh

2267
01:30:12,229 --> 01:30:09,520
if i i don't think that hbo documentary

2268
01:30:14,629 --> 01:30:12,239
ever aired did it oh no i mean doty

2269
01:30:17,430 --> 01:30:14,639
managed to uh trash that project really

2270
01:30:19,189 --> 01:30:17,440
just by completely discrediting linda

2271
01:30:22,310 --> 01:30:19,199
yeah which was which was the intention

2272
01:30:25,590 --> 01:30:22,320
all along uh i think what

2273
01:30:28,950 --> 01:30:25,600
was the sort of the the problem for the

2274
01:30:32,550 --> 01:30:28,960
air force of afrosi was

2275
01:30:35,350 --> 01:30:32,560
um that linda was looking into

2276
01:30:37,990 --> 01:30:35,360
uh the i think the cash landrum

2277
01:30:42,229 --> 01:30:38,000
story uh which was the 1980

2278
01:30:44,470 --> 01:30:42,239
uh pine woods uh sort of ufo sighting by

2279
01:30:47,669 --> 01:30:44,480
two women and one of their grandchildren

2280
01:30:50,070 --> 01:30:47,679
uh outside dallas texas and i think at

2281
01:30:53,030 --> 01:30:50,080
that time peter gersten and assistant

2282
01:30:55,350 --> 01:30:53,040
against ufo secrecy were

2283
01:30:57,669 --> 01:30:55,360
taking on a case against the air force

2284
01:30:58,950 --> 01:30:57,679
on behalf of the witnesses

2285
01:31:02,709 --> 01:30:58,960
and um

2286
01:31:04,229 --> 01:31:02,719
my suspicion is that that's what afosi

2287
01:31:05,990 --> 01:31:04,239
were worried about at the time and

2288
01:31:07,830 --> 01:31:06,000
that's what they wanted to

2289
01:31:11,189 --> 01:31:07,840
kind of uh

2290
01:31:12,709 --> 01:31:11,199
um derail that investigation or possibly

2291
01:31:14,229 --> 01:31:12,719
linda's investigation of cataract

2292
01:31:15,590 --> 01:31:14,239
mutilation is another

2293
01:31:16,550 --> 01:31:15,600
possibility though

2294
01:31:18,470 --> 01:31:16,560
now

2295
01:31:20,470 --> 01:31:18,480
real quick let's let's let's take a

2296
01:31:21,590 --> 01:31:20,480
break right now because that's a good

2297
01:31:24,070 --> 01:31:21,600
twist

2298
01:31:25,990 --> 01:31:24,080
i want to pick up with uh linda mulhow

2299
01:31:27,350 --> 01:31:26,000
and and when we come back i have an

2300
01:31:28,229 --> 01:31:27,360
actual uh

2301
01:31:34,310 --> 01:31:28,239
uh

2302
01:31:35,750 --> 01:31:34,320
opinions on we are with mark pilkington

2303
01:31:38,310 --> 01:31:35,760
and roland denning

2304
01:31:39,590 --> 01:31:38,320
their new documentary is mirage men this

2305
01:31:41,910 --> 01:31:39,600
is payton black i'm your host jimmy

2306
01:31:43,110 --> 01:31:41,920
church on the dark matter radio network

2307
01:31:56,950 --> 01:31:43,120
we'll be back

2308
01:32:00,870 --> 01:31:58,709
from locker us and i listen to

2309
01:32:02,390 --> 01:32:00,880
jimmychurchradio.com

2310
01:32:03,990 --> 01:32:02,400
jeffy church

2311
01:32:08,229 --> 01:32:04,000
church my name is alan i listen to

2312
01:32:08,239 --> 01:32:12,790
he's always giving it to you straight

2313
01:32:18,870 --> 01:32:16,870
on the dark matter radio network

2314
01:32:23,430 --> 01:32:18,880
hi this is rob reiner from anvil and

2315
01:32:41,189 --> 01:32:27,750
what's up chris what up this is

2316
01:32:43,669 --> 01:32:42,790
all right everybody welcome back katie

2317
01:32:46,070 --> 01:32:43,679
black

2318
01:32:48,149 --> 01:32:46,080
i'm your host jimmy church on the dark

2319
01:32:50,229 --> 01:32:48,159
matter radio network

2320
01:32:52,950 --> 01:32:50,239
live from london england we have mark

2321
01:32:55,669 --> 01:32:52,960
pilkington and roland denning the new

2322
01:32:58,790 --> 01:32:55,679
documentary mirage men

2323
01:33:00,470 --> 01:32:58,800
adapted from mark's uh book hey mark

2324
01:33:02,229 --> 01:33:00,480
when did the uh

2325
01:33:03,430 --> 01:33:02,239
when did the first printing go out of

2326
01:33:08,390 --> 01:33:03,440
mirageman

2327
01:33:09,990 --> 01:33:08,400
that was uh summer 2010 2010. and again

2328
01:33:11,990 --> 01:33:10,000
i i'm

2329
01:33:15,510 --> 01:33:12,000
the vision of thinking that this could

2330
01:33:18,149 --> 01:33:15,520
be a documentary and and maybe it would

2331
01:33:20,950 --> 01:33:18,159
and and getting all of this shot uh you

2332
01:33:22,390 --> 01:33:20,960
know enrolling it made your life easy

2333
01:33:24,310 --> 01:33:22,400
you didn't have

2334
01:33:26,709 --> 01:33:24,320
you know you just came in after after

2335
01:33:29,430 --> 01:33:26,719
everything was shot am i correct on that

2336
01:33:31,910 --> 01:33:29,440
well easy and maybe but there were like

2337
01:33:33,510 --> 01:33:31,920
50 hours of rushes and

2338
01:33:35,270 --> 01:33:33,520
i had to trawl through this and make

2339
01:33:37,830 --> 01:33:35,280
sense of it right

2340
01:33:39,910 --> 01:33:37,840
and which was fascinating but it was i

2341
01:33:41,430 --> 01:33:39,920
mean there's so much stuff there

2342
01:33:42,390 --> 01:33:41,440
well and this has to be we've been

2343
01:33:45,350 --> 01:33:42,400
talking about there's so many

2344
01:33:47,350 --> 01:33:45,360
conflicting competing ideas that

2345
01:33:48,950 --> 01:33:47,360
you're sort of weaving it into something

2346
01:33:49,750 --> 01:33:48,960
that um

2347
01:33:51,590 --> 01:33:49,760
well

2348
01:33:53,830 --> 01:33:51,600
yes and i think my ideas were close to

2349
01:33:56,950 --> 01:33:53,840
mark and john's that it wasn't just the

2350
01:33:58,390 --> 01:33:56,960
straight are there uf uh ufos et's or

2351
01:33:59,830 --> 01:33:58,400
not you know is it real is it not real

2352
01:34:02,709 --> 01:33:59,840
it was actually trying to get beyond

2353
01:34:04,629 --> 01:34:02,719
that and this way that we continually

2354
01:34:06,390 --> 01:34:04,639
tell stories to each other to make sense

2355
01:34:07,990 --> 01:34:06,400
of the world and the things we believe

2356
01:34:09,669 --> 01:34:08,000
in and things we don't believe in that's

2357
01:34:12,709 --> 01:34:09,679
what sort of got me caught into the

2358
01:34:16,229 --> 01:34:12,719
story well we were talking uh during the

2359
01:34:19,510 --> 01:34:16,239
break uh briefly about my

2360
01:34:21,750 --> 01:34:19,520
uh my take on the music business versus

2361
01:34:23,990 --> 01:34:21,760
uh the film industry it's all really

2362
01:34:26,229 --> 01:34:24,000
about the same thing you're you you

2363
01:34:28,790 --> 01:34:26,239
you're creating something

2364
01:34:31,110 --> 01:34:28,800
mixing it editing it getting the final

2365
01:34:32,950 --> 01:34:31,120
product out and then distributing it the

2366
01:34:35,430 --> 01:34:32,960
process is the same

2367
01:34:37,669 --> 01:34:35,440
and in in the music industry a lot of

2368
01:34:40,550 --> 01:34:37,679
guys will come in after the album is

2369
01:34:42,390 --> 01:34:40,560
recorded then they just come in and mix

2370
01:34:43,910 --> 01:34:42,400
you know like in in the film industry

2371
01:34:45,990 --> 01:34:43,920
you got an editor that's going to come

2372
01:34:48,629 --> 01:34:46,000
in and edit everything and and put it

2373
01:34:50,390 --> 01:34:48,639
together um and so

2374
01:34:53,030 --> 01:34:50,400
because you're not involved with the

2375
01:34:55,189 --> 01:34:53,040
creative process or the work you know

2376
01:34:57,110 --> 01:34:55,199
everything that's involved as a mixer in

2377
01:35:01,910 --> 01:34:57,120
the music industry you can come in with

2378
01:35:04,229 --> 01:35:01,920
a fresh set of eyes and ears and and

2379
01:35:07,030 --> 01:35:04,239
and uh you know you're not so close to

2380
01:35:08,229 --> 01:35:07,040
the fire did was that the same process

2381
01:35:10,550 --> 01:35:08,239
with uh

2382
01:35:12,149 --> 01:35:10,560
with mirage men for you i think so to an

2383
01:35:13,669 --> 01:35:12,159
extent i mean i haven't been very i

2384
01:35:14,470 --> 01:35:13,679
haven't been involved at all in the ufo

2385
01:35:17,110 --> 01:35:14,480
world

2386
01:35:19,030 --> 01:35:17,120
so i could just look at it as uh i've

2387
01:35:21,189 --> 01:35:19,040
been involved in all these ideas about

2388
01:35:23,430 --> 01:35:21,199
belief and credibility and all of that

2389
01:35:25,990 --> 01:35:23,440
but no it wasn't part of the ufo world

2390
01:35:29,189 --> 01:35:26,000
so to an extent i i came in

2391
01:35:31,590 --> 01:35:29,199
with a different set of eyes exactly and

2392
01:35:33,189 --> 01:35:31,600
that's probably was a good thing and i

2393
01:35:35,990 --> 01:35:33,199
should always say that we use quite a

2394
01:35:37,830 --> 01:35:36,000
lot of archive stuff mixed into the uh

2395
01:35:39,590 --> 01:35:37,840
so it's not just the stuff that mark and

2396
01:35:41,590 --> 01:35:39,600
john's shot we've actually

2397
01:35:42,950 --> 01:35:41,600
you know we've got sources of graphics

2398
01:35:45,830 --> 01:35:42,960
and

2399
01:35:49,110 --> 01:35:45,840
archive i think the role of the editor

2400
01:35:51,669 --> 01:35:49,120
both you know in film and music and in

2401
01:35:52,950 --> 01:35:51,679
writing is just absolutely integral and

2402
01:35:55,430 --> 01:35:52,960
incredibly

2403
01:35:58,950 --> 01:35:55,440
important and i think

2404
01:36:00,149 --> 01:35:58,960
roland and kip who who edited uh mirage

2405
01:36:02,629 --> 01:36:00,159
men they've

2406
01:36:04,070 --> 01:36:02,639
you know they've basically turned

2407
01:36:09,110 --> 01:36:04,080
50 hours of

2408
01:36:11,750 --> 01:36:09,120
of uh of material into into a story into

2409
01:36:14,229 --> 01:36:11,760
a film so you know it is a very creative

2410
01:36:17,590 --> 01:36:14,239
process and and absolutely

2411
01:36:19,830 --> 01:36:17,600
uh essential to you know to to the whole

2412
01:36:21,590 --> 01:36:19,840
process did you guys ever uh did you

2413
01:36:22,790 --> 01:36:21,600
guys ever fight

2414
01:36:29,590 --> 01:36:22,800
no never

2415
01:36:32,629 --> 01:36:30,870
i mean there's a hundred different

2416
01:36:34,709 --> 01:36:32,639
stories or a thousand different stories

2417
01:36:36,709 --> 01:36:34,719
you could pull out of this film so

2418
01:36:38,390 --> 01:36:36,719
i think we sort of

2419
01:36:40,790 --> 01:36:38,400
knew early on we were thinking along the

2420
01:36:42,229 --> 01:36:40,800
same line so um yeah and i think we and

2421
01:36:44,229 --> 01:36:42,239
we obviously

2422
01:36:46,070 --> 01:36:44,239
one of the reasons we were very happy

2423
01:36:47,109 --> 01:36:46,080
for roland and kip to work with the film

2424
01:36:49,109 --> 01:36:47,119
is because

2425
01:36:51,510 --> 01:36:49,119
the way you understood the material and

2426
01:36:53,109 --> 01:36:51,520
the approach material chimed so closely

2427
01:36:55,270 --> 01:36:53,119
with the way

2428
01:36:57,510 --> 01:36:55,280
you know what we had in mind already and

2429
01:36:59,350 --> 01:36:57,520
obviously obviously to an extent the

2430
01:37:01,830 --> 01:36:59,360
material we had shot kind of you know

2431
01:37:03,830 --> 01:37:01,840
was was nudging in a certain direction

2432
01:37:05,590 --> 01:37:03,840
but then again you could have turned it

2433
01:37:08,149 --> 01:37:05,600
into anything yeah you wanted i mean we

2434
01:37:09,910 --> 01:37:08,159
were very concerned not to make fools of

2435
01:37:11,350 --> 01:37:09,920
people i mean it's very easy when you

2436
01:37:12,470 --> 01:37:11,360
edit something to make someone look an

2437
01:37:13,750 --> 01:37:12,480
idiot

2438
01:37:15,590 --> 01:37:13,760
just by cutting you can make someone

2439
01:37:17,990 --> 01:37:15,600
look an idiot and we wanted very much to

2440
01:37:20,709 --> 01:37:18,000
treat everybody with respect and at the

2441
01:37:21,669 --> 01:37:20,719
same time be critical you know but i so

2442
01:37:23,910 --> 01:37:21,679
i hope

2443
01:37:25,430 --> 01:37:23,920
everybody presents the ideas as they

2444
01:37:27,109 --> 01:37:25,440
want them to be presented but at the

2445
01:37:29,189 --> 01:37:27,119
same time we put ideas against each

2446
01:37:31,430 --> 01:37:29,199
other so you can actually

2447
01:37:33,910 --> 01:37:31,440
get a critical critical distance on it

2448
01:37:36,470 --> 01:37:33,920
but i how do you handle everybody with

2449
01:37:38,070 --> 01:37:36,480
respect how do you handle the sensitive

2450
01:37:42,629 --> 01:37:38,080
issues

2451
01:37:44,709 --> 01:37:42,639
of uh the sensitive issue of lies

2452
01:37:47,590 --> 01:37:44,719
because that's what this movie is about

2453
01:37:48,790 --> 01:37:47,600
and that's what the subject is about and

2454
01:37:51,430 --> 01:37:48,800
so

2455
01:37:54,149 --> 01:37:51,440
were you ever afraid of maybe

2456
01:37:55,109 --> 01:37:54,159
lawsuits or any legal action where

2457
01:37:57,030 --> 01:37:55,119
somebody's

2458
01:37:59,270 --> 01:37:57,040
could potentially come forward and say i

2459
01:38:02,790 --> 01:37:59,280
didn't tell that lie or i did tell that

2460
01:38:04,390 --> 01:38:02,800
lie and you you know how did you deal

2461
01:38:06,070 --> 01:38:04,400
with that

2462
01:38:08,310 --> 01:38:06,080
how did we do it well it's all been

2463
01:38:11,750 --> 01:38:08,320
checked by by a lawyer and it's all

2464
01:38:16,070 --> 01:38:13,350
i can't remember that we actually cut

2465
01:38:19,109 --> 01:38:16,080
anything out because it was liability in

2466
01:38:21,030 --> 01:38:19,119
um just to refer back to the book uh

2467
01:38:24,310 --> 01:38:21,040
there was one

2468
01:38:27,109 --> 01:38:24,320
paragraph that was uh deleted from the

2469
01:38:29,030 --> 01:38:27,119
book by my publishers lawyers and of

2470
01:38:31,350 --> 01:38:29,040
course unfortunately i can't

2471
01:38:32,709 --> 01:38:31,360
talk about it on the air

2472
01:38:33,990 --> 01:38:32,719
but um

2473
01:38:35,910 --> 01:38:34,000
and i was amazed i thought there would

2474
01:38:38,390 --> 01:38:35,920
be more actually but there was just one

2475
01:38:40,870 --> 01:38:38,400
point that they

2476
01:38:43,430 --> 01:38:40,880
said i was basically accusing someone of

2477
01:38:46,310 --> 01:38:43,440
an extremely serious crime

2478
01:38:48,149 --> 01:38:46,320
and uh without evidence i had to

2479
01:38:50,950 --> 01:38:48,159
withdraw it it was a distorting of the

2480
01:38:52,550 --> 01:38:50,960
legal process in that case

2481
01:38:54,390 --> 01:38:52,560
i mean people are basically telling you

2482
01:38:55,590 --> 01:38:54,400
what they've experienced

2483
01:39:02,310 --> 01:38:55,600
and what they believe and what they

2484
01:39:07,030 --> 01:39:05,510
i guess i'm referring directly to

2485
01:39:09,350 --> 01:39:07,040
i mean dodie

2486
01:39:11,750 --> 01:39:09,360
dodie is dodie and he's on the film so

2487
01:39:14,470 --> 01:39:11,760
that's that but you know i'm referring

2488
01:39:17,109 --> 01:39:14,480
back to maybe bill moore or

2489
01:39:19,750 --> 01:39:17,119
you know going back to maybe um paul

2490
01:39:22,470 --> 01:39:19,760
ryan or the original you know serpo

2491
01:39:23,990 --> 01:39:22,480
websites or any of the the the mountains

2492
01:39:27,990 --> 01:39:24,000
of uh

2493
01:39:30,950 --> 01:39:28,000
jamie shandera mj12 you know all of the

2494
01:39:32,149 --> 01:39:30,960
uh deception that was you know pulled on

2495
01:39:34,709 --> 01:39:32,159
the public

2496
01:39:36,709 --> 01:39:34,719
you know if it's such a sensitive issue

2497
01:39:37,590 --> 01:39:36,719
and i just i didn't know if you had to

2498
01:39:39,430 --> 01:39:37,600
uh

2499
01:39:43,430 --> 01:39:39,440
seriously pull back reigns a little bit

2500
01:39:45,430 --> 01:39:43,440
and wonder who you could say did what

2501
01:39:47,990 --> 01:39:45,440
i don't i think a lot of it is now in

2502
01:39:50,149 --> 01:39:48,000
the public domain i mean we know about

2503
01:39:51,189 --> 01:39:50,159
doty and william moore

2504
01:39:52,310 --> 01:39:51,199
um

2505
01:39:54,709 --> 01:39:52,320
you know

2506
01:39:55,830 --> 01:39:54,719
moore has confessed doty has confessed

2507
01:39:58,310 --> 01:39:55,840
so

2508
01:40:02,550 --> 01:39:58,320
i can't i don't think any of it was

2509
01:40:04,950 --> 01:40:02,560
contentious no i mean if if um

2510
01:40:06,310 --> 01:40:04,960
yeah we don't we we obviously can't

2511
01:40:09,910 --> 01:40:06,320
outright

2512
01:40:11,830 --> 01:40:09,920
uh say you know that

2513
01:40:13,910 --> 01:40:11,840
so and so

2514
01:40:16,390 --> 01:40:13,920
that anyone in particular made so

2515
01:40:18,229 --> 01:40:16,400
created the mj12 papers for example and

2516
01:40:20,390 --> 01:40:18,239
there's a great deal of speculation

2517
01:40:22,950 --> 01:40:20,400
about that we do we did ask

2518
01:40:25,030 --> 01:40:22,960
doty up front and he just said his what

2519
01:40:25,830 --> 01:40:25,040
he had said has absolutely nothing to do

2520
01:40:28,229 --> 01:40:25,840
with it

2521
01:40:30,070 --> 01:40:28,239
uh he was investigated by the fbi and

2522
01:40:32,149 --> 01:40:30,080
and exonerated so

2523
01:40:34,470 --> 01:40:32,159
and i bel i actually do genuinely

2524
01:40:35,830 --> 01:40:34,480
believe him on that front uh the process

2525
01:40:38,550 --> 01:40:35,840
i think

2526
01:40:42,070 --> 01:40:38,560
that happened was that

2527
01:40:44,470 --> 01:40:42,080
uh he and bill moore and a national

2528
01:40:47,350 --> 01:40:44,480
enquirer journalist called bob pratt

2529
01:40:52,070 --> 01:40:47,360
uh were sort of discussing

2530
01:40:54,310 --> 01:40:52,080
hypothetically an organization like mj12

2531
01:40:55,830 --> 01:40:54,320
and then that material was fed back

2532
01:40:59,350 --> 01:40:55,840
probably to

2533
01:41:01,590 --> 01:40:59,360
someone else that afosi or possibly

2534
01:41:04,629 --> 01:41:01,600
someone else in ofosi

2535
01:41:07,590 --> 01:41:04,639
and then the mj12 papers emerged out of

2536
01:41:09,510 --> 01:41:07,600
that if they were indeed

2537
01:41:11,990 --> 01:41:09,520
an afosi operation we don't even know

2538
01:41:14,470 --> 01:41:12,000
that much we know that when the fbi

2539
01:41:16,870 --> 01:41:14,480
investigated them

2540
01:41:18,550 --> 01:41:16,880
they spent a long several months

2541
01:41:22,229 --> 01:41:18,560
investigating them

2542
01:41:25,270 --> 01:41:22,239
and eventually they just received so

2543
01:41:28,470 --> 01:41:25,280
almost anonymously

2544
01:41:30,470 --> 01:41:28,480
a set of papers from rfosi from the air

2545
01:41:33,669 --> 01:41:30,480
force office of special investigation

2546
01:41:36,470 --> 01:41:33,679
with a stamp on them saying bogus so

2547
01:41:39,910 --> 01:41:36,480
that was that was the official statement

2548
01:41:42,310 --> 01:41:41,030
dodie

2549
01:41:45,270 --> 01:41:42,320
said

2550
01:41:46,629 --> 01:41:45,280
uh on camera i guess that's what you're

2551
01:41:47,590 --> 01:41:46,639
referring to

2552
01:41:49,430 --> 01:41:47,600
that

2553
01:41:52,470 --> 01:41:49,440
he

2554
01:41:55,189 --> 01:41:52,480
uh wasn't involved with mj-12 but yet it

2555
01:41:56,629 --> 01:41:55,199
was he was part of the idea

2556
01:41:58,629 --> 01:41:56,639
no he doesn't say that he doesn't play

2557
01:42:00,870 --> 01:41:58,639
that he doesn't say that categorically

2558
01:42:04,629 --> 01:42:00,880
he had nothing to do with mj12 or serpo

2559
01:42:07,750 --> 01:42:04,639
so he put it uh or serpo

2560
01:42:09,669 --> 01:42:07,760
really yeah so categorically categorical

2561
01:42:11,350 --> 01:42:09,679
but we do put uh

2562
01:42:13,830 --> 01:42:11,360
opposing ideas to his involvement in

2563
01:42:15,189 --> 01:42:13,840
serpa in the film certainly

2564
01:42:18,310 --> 01:42:15,199
i'm again

2565
01:42:20,070 --> 01:42:18,320
i'm i'm so confused right now

2566
01:42:22,149 --> 01:42:20,080
well that's part of the

2567
01:42:22,950 --> 01:42:22,159
the disinformation i guess i i i don't

2568
01:42:25,270 --> 01:42:22,960
know

2569
01:42:27,109 --> 01:42:25,280
it's part of the okay

2570
01:42:29,590 --> 01:42:27,119
i i wanted to get back to linda moulton

2571
01:42:32,229 --> 01:42:29,600
howe we're on the subject of serpo let's

2572
01:42:33,270 --> 01:42:32,239
stay right there for a second

2573
01:42:35,189 --> 01:42:33,280
what was

2574
01:42:37,189 --> 01:42:35,199
for for for the listeners that need to

2575
01:42:39,270 --> 01:42:37,199
know what was serpo

2576
01:42:43,109 --> 01:42:39,280
what was project serpo

2577
01:42:45,590 --> 01:42:43,119
come up okay well in late 2004

2578
01:42:48,070 --> 01:42:45,600
early 2005

2579
01:42:53,109 --> 01:42:49,270
some

2580
01:42:55,669 --> 01:42:53,119
emails began to sort of circulate uh via

2581
01:42:58,390 --> 01:42:55,679
a mailing list operated by

2582
01:43:01,030 --> 01:42:58,400
a los angeles supply teacher called

2583
01:43:03,910 --> 01:43:01,040
victor martinez

2584
01:43:07,189 --> 01:43:03,920
and these emails

2585
01:43:09,669 --> 01:43:07,199
seem to come from

2586
01:43:12,870 --> 01:43:09,679
somebody who had been part

2587
01:43:17,590 --> 01:43:12,880
of an exchange program which

2588
01:43:18,790 --> 01:43:17,600
began in 1968 and sent i think it was

2589
01:43:20,470 --> 01:43:18,800
eight

2590
01:43:21,830 --> 01:43:20,480
u.s air force

2591
01:43:24,229 --> 01:43:21,840
pilots

2592
01:43:25,590 --> 01:43:24,239
or

2593
01:43:27,669 --> 01:43:25,600
out to

2594
01:43:31,590 --> 01:43:27,679
an extraterrestrial

2595
01:43:33,669 --> 01:43:31,600
uh civilization on a planet called sainu

2596
01:43:35,189 --> 01:43:33,679
in the zeta reticuli system i can't

2597
01:43:36,310 --> 01:43:35,199
remember how far away that is but a long

2598
01:43:38,709 --> 01:43:36,320
way away

2599
01:43:39,990 --> 01:43:38,719
and this was a kind of exchange

2600
01:43:40,870 --> 01:43:40,000
uh with

2601
01:43:42,910 --> 01:43:40,880
uh

2602
01:43:45,990 --> 01:43:42,920
one or two

2603
01:43:47,350 --> 01:43:46,000
extraterrestrials from this planet who

2604
01:43:50,709 --> 01:43:47,360
stayed here

2605
01:43:53,350 --> 01:43:50,719
courtesy and in the so care of the us

2606
01:43:56,149 --> 01:43:53,360
government and these um

2607
01:43:59,030 --> 01:43:56,159
i think were kept at area 51 but i'm not

2608
01:44:00,229 --> 01:43:59,040
i can't quite remember um

2609
01:44:03,430 --> 01:44:00,239
but

2610
01:44:05,270 --> 01:44:03,440
the air force guys spent 13 years in

2611
01:44:07,189 --> 01:44:05,280
total

2612
01:44:08,229 --> 01:44:07,199
on the planet sainu

2613
01:44:09,910 --> 01:44:08,239
um

2614
01:44:12,390 --> 01:44:09,920
and i think

2615
01:44:14,390 --> 01:44:12,400
some of them died some of them came back

2616
01:44:18,790 --> 01:44:14,400
and the guy who was

2617
01:44:21,189 --> 01:44:18,800
leaking his reports back in 2005 was one

2618
01:44:22,790 --> 01:44:21,199
of the survivors and

2619
01:44:24,550 --> 01:44:22,800
this wasn't just

2620
01:44:27,189 --> 01:44:24,560
one document it was

2621
01:44:30,229 --> 01:44:27,199
tens of if not hundreds of pages of

2622
01:44:32,390 --> 01:44:30,239
material an incredible deed incredible

2623
01:44:34,950 --> 01:44:32,400
detail

2624
01:44:37,109 --> 01:44:34,960
describing life on the planet and

2625
01:44:39,270 --> 01:44:37,119
and their operations and

2626
01:44:42,470 --> 01:44:39,280
whatever it was it was an immense

2627
01:44:43,830 --> 01:44:42,480
undertaking on somebody's part and

2628
01:44:45,030 --> 01:44:43,840
uh

2629
01:44:49,109 --> 01:44:45,040
yeah we

2630
01:44:52,070 --> 01:44:49,119
don't have the the whole story on

2631
01:44:54,709 --> 01:44:52,080
uh who wrote it uh i don't think rick

2632
01:44:57,430 --> 01:44:54,719
doty wrote it uh but i do

2633
01:44:59,590 --> 01:44:57,440
think he well certainly it looks like

2634
01:45:02,229 --> 01:44:59,600
he was helping to

2635
01:45:03,350 --> 01:45:02,239
disseminate the material and was also

2636
01:45:06,709 --> 01:45:03,360
monitoring

2637
01:45:08,550 --> 01:45:06,719
the way that the material was being uh

2638
01:45:10,229 --> 01:45:08,560
spread and talked about

2639
01:45:12,229 --> 01:45:10,239
and one of the key things about serpos

2640
01:45:14,229 --> 01:45:12,239
is when the internet interests enters

2641
01:45:16,709 --> 01:45:14,239
the story because

2642
01:45:19,270 --> 01:45:16,719
it's the first real ufo

2643
01:45:22,229 --> 01:45:19,280
big story of the internet era era before

2644
01:45:24,870 --> 01:45:22,239
that it was conferences and letters and

2645
01:45:26,870 --> 01:45:24,880
films being found and passed now it

2646
01:45:28,790 --> 01:45:26,880
comes out on the internet

2647
01:45:31,510 --> 01:45:28,800
and the other very important thing about

2648
01:45:32,189 --> 01:45:31,520
serpo is i don't know if you remember

2649
01:45:34,709 --> 01:45:32,199
but

2650
01:45:35,830 --> 01:45:34,719
2004 or five

2651
01:45:38,629 --> 01:45:35,840
uh

2652
01:45:41,350 --> 01:45:38,639
i think was the lowest ebb ever in

2653
01:45:42,229 --> 01:45:41,360
public interest in the ufo subject it

2654
01:45:43,910 --> 01:45:42,239
was

2655
01:45:48,550 --> 01:45:43,920
why would you

2656
01:45:50,390 --> 01:45:48,560
um there was i mean i was i was there i

2657
01:45:52,629 --> 01:45:50,400
remember they were

2658
01:45:55,350 --> 01:45:52,639
in this country uh

2659
01:45:57,750 --> 01:45:55,360
several ufo groups just disbanded there

2660
01:45:59,189 --> 01:45:57,760
was no interest in the media in the

2661
01:46:01,270 --> 01:45:59,199
subject

2662
01:46:03,590 --> 01:46:01,280
there was no discussion very little

2663
01:46:04,550 --> 01:46:03,600
discussion of online it was before

2664
01:46:07,270 --> 01:46:04,560
okay

2665
01:46:09,270 --> 01:46:07,280
think about this um

2666
01:46:12,229 --> 01:46:09,280
open minds for example and above top

2667
01:46:13,910 --> 01:46:12,239
secret which are now two very you know

2668
01:46:16,950 --> 01:46:13,920
successful and

2669
01:46:19,590 --> 01:46:16,960
important uh uh forums for discussing

2670
01:46:21,990 --> 01:46:19,600
this material they only existed because

2671
01:46:22,950 --> 01:46:22,000
of serpo as there was the servo story

2672
01:46:23,669 --> 01:46:22,960
that

2673
01:46:25,590 --> 01:46:23,679
uh

2674
01:46:28,070 --> 01:46:25,600
so that

2675
01:46:29,830 --> 01:46:28,080
brought them into existence to discuss

2676
01:46:31,990 --> 01:46:29,840
these matters so

2677
01:46:34,550 --> 01:46:32,000
i think up until that point

2678
01:46:37,189 --> 01:46:34,560
um there was a real strong chance that

2679
01:46:40,070 --> 01:46:37,199
the ufo subject was going to be over it

2680
01:46:43,189 --> 01:46:40,080
was going to be 20th century history and

2681
01:46:46,709 --> 01:46:43,199
i i i would say absolutely

2682
01:46:48,390 --> 01:46:46,719
uh with utmost confidence that sopo

2683
01:46:51,270 --> 01:46:48,400
resuscitated

2684
01:46:52,229 --> 01:46:51,280
uh a dying

2685
01:46:56,229 --> 01:46:52,239
culture

2686
01:46:57,910 --> 01:46:56,239
um well to to to that point

2687
01:47:00,550 --> 01:46:57,920
when

2688
01:47:02,070 --> 01:47:00,560
i uh the first time i signed on to the

2689
01:47:04,870 --> 01:47:02,080
internet

2690
01:47:08,310 --> 01:47:04,880
downloaded whatever i had to at that

2691
01:47:11,510 --> 01:47:08,320
time and i'm talking about 1994.95

2692
01:47:12,709 --> 01:47:11,520
so it may have been aol 1.0

2693
01:47:16,229 --> 01:47:12,719
uh

2694
01:47:17,990 --> 01:47:16,239
and but the first thing that i did

2695
01:47:21,270 --> 01:47:18,000
very first

2696
01:47:22,950 --> 01:47:21,280
was i typed in ufo picture that was my

2697
01:47:26,470 --> 01:47:22,960
first

2698
01:47:29,590 --> 01:47:26,480
i'm talking i didn't go i didn't go porn

2699
01:47:32,070 --> 01:47:29,600
okay i didn't i i didn't look for

2700
01:47:34,470 --> 01:47:32,080
for my long-lost brother i didn't do any

2701
01:47:37,030 --> 01:47:34,480
of that stuff or some ex-girlfriend

2702
01:47:38,870 --> 01:47:37,040
that's not what i did i actually typed

2703
01:47:41,109 --> 01:47:38,880
in the ufo picture

2704
01:47:42,390 --> 01:47:41,119
and i went off into that thing

2705
01:47:43,430 --> 01:47:42,400
uh

2706
01:47:46,629 --> 01:47:43,440
there was

2707
01:47:49,350 --> 01:47:46,639
then and then

2708
01:47:52,550 --> 01:47:49,360
this addresses your point directly mark

2709
01:47:54,709 --> 01:47:52,560
um and that there was a huge because

2710
01:47:55,590 --> 01:47:54,719
right after that you had

2711
01:47:57,990 --> 01:47:55,600
uh

2712
01:48:01,030 --> 01:47:58,000
so many different events that happened

2713
01:48:03,830 --> 01:48:01,040
and you you had uh bob lazar you know

2714
01:48:07,030 --> 01:48:03,840
you had you know just crazy things that

2715
01:48:07,990 --> 01:48:07,040
were area 51 was this big secret thing

2716
01:48:10,229 --> 01:48:08,000
and so

2717
01:48:12,229 --> 01:48:10,239
there was uh there was lots of really

2718
01:48:15,669 --> 01:48:12,239
cool roads to go down

2719
01:48:18,229 --> 01:48:15,679
but once those roads kind of ended and i

2720
01:48:19,189 --> 01:48:18,239
i tend to agree with what you're saying

2721
01:48:21,430 --> 01:48:19,199
um

2722
01:48:23,750 --> 01:48:21,440
uh the interest in that's why i wanted

2723
01:48:25,350 --> 01:48:23,760
your opinion uh why why you were saying

2724
01:48:28,310 --> 01:48:25,360
that so directly

2725
01:48:30,830 --> 01:48:28,320
and it did tend to swing down serpo well

2726
01:48:32,629 --> 01:48:30,840
not only serpo but then

2727
01:48:34,790 --> 01:48:32,639
uh

2728
01:48:36,950 --> 01:48:34,800
so many other subjects started to pop up

2729
01:48:39,830 --> 01:48:36,960
at the same time and and certainly

2730
01:48:42,550 --> 01:48:39,840
there's been a resurgence yes i agree

2731
01:48:45,430 --> 01:48:42,560
um now back with serpo

2732
01:48:47,910 --> 01:48:45,440
um and and victor martinez and the

2733
01:48:49,910 --> 01:48:47,920
mysterio uh the mystery that was behind

2734
01:48:50,709 --> 01:48:49,920
it was kind of like

2735
01:48:53,350 --> 01:48:50,719
uh

2736
01:48:54,390 --> 01:48:53,360
the way the mj-12 documents started to

2737
01:48:57,189 --> 01:48:54,400
surface

2738
01:49:00,870 --> 01:48:57,199
and so i just have to wonder and look

2739
01:49:03,669 --> 01:49:00,880
back now did was it the same

2740
01:49:05,030 --> 01:49:03,679
same point source the same same source

2741
01:49:06,950 --> 01:49:05,040
of ignition

2742
01:49:09,109 --> 01:49:06,960
was it disinformation from the

2743
01:49:11,109 --> 01:49:09,119
government or was it somebody having fun

2744
01:49:13,189 --> 01:49:11,119
with a hoax

2745
01:49:15,030 --> 01:49:13,199
that's an unanswered question at this

2746
01:49:16,310 --> 01:49:15,040
point and there have been you know

2747
01:49:19,270 --> 01:49:16,320
multiple

2748
01:49:21,350 --> 01:49:19,280
uh speculations as to

2749
01:49:23,189 --> 01:49:21,360
what the reasoning behind serpo was what

2750
01:49:26,149 --> 01:49:23,199
its purpose was

2751
01:49:30,709 --> 01:49:28,790
a hoax it was um

2752
01:49:32,950 --> 01:49:30,719
if it was sorry i mean it was a hoax

2753
01:49:33,830 --> 01:49:32,960
well we don't know obviously but i'm

2754
01:49:35,189 --> 01:49:33,840
my

2755
01:49:36,790 --> 01:49:35,199
punch is that there wasn't an

2756
01:49:39,350 --> 01:49:36,800
extraterrestrial exchange program in

2757
01:49:41,109 --> 01:49:39,360
1968 um but that's that's the way i'm

2758
01:49:43,590 --> 01:49:41,119
wired um

2759
01:49:45,669 --> 01:49:43,600
but it was a huge operation for somebody

2760
01:49:48,070 --> 01:49:45,679
it was a massive amount of work required

2761
01:49:50,790 --> 01:49:48,080
a lot of research a lot of

2762
01:49:53,189 --> 01:49:50,800
you know pouring through astronomical

2763
01:49:54,470 --> 01:49:53,199
tables and data a lot of which was wrong

2764
01:49:57,270 --> 01:49:54,480
it has to be

2765
01:49:59,510 --> 01:49:57,280
said but this was no

2766
01:50:01,109 --> 01:49:59,520
casual undertaking whatever the purpose

2767
01:50:03,669 --> 01:50:01,119
behind it it was

2768
01:50:05,669 --> 01:50:03,679
um you know it was a it was a lot of

2769
01:50:07,430 --> 01:50:05,679
work and it could have been somebody's

2770
01:50:09,590 --> 01:50:07,440
experimental novel that was released

2771
01:50:11,270 --> 01:50:09,600
onto the internet it could have been as

2772
01:50:12,470 --> 01:50:11,280
some people said

2773
01:50:43,350 --> 01:50:12,480
a

2774
01:50:45,270 --> 01:50:43,360
how

2775
01:50:48,790 --> 01:50:45,280
go ahead go ahead go ahead well doty

2776
01:50:51,590 --> 01:50:48,800
says victor martinez says doti kindly

2777
01:50:54,629 --> 01:50:51,600
lent his ip address as a shield for all

2778
01:50:56,390 --> 01:50:54,639
these poor vulnerable people

2779
01:50:59,189 --> 01:50:56,400
which you know could believe that or not

2780
01:51:01,030 --> 01:50:59,199
believe that um if doty as he claims had

2781
01:51:05,030 --> 01:51:01,040
nothing whatever to do with it why did

2782
01:51:07,270 --> 01:51:05,040
he get involved in it hmm exactly and

2783
01:51:10,070 --> 01:51:07,280
i i don't want to sound like i'm kicking

2784
01:51:11,350 --> 01:51:10,080
a dead mutilated cow here

2785
01:51:12,950 --> 01:51:11,360
but

2786
01:51:15,270 --> 01:51:12,960
you don't know what to believe and

2787
01:51:17,590 --> 01:51:15,280
that's part of the disinformation and

2788
01:51:20,470 --> 01:51:17,600
that's why it's so successful because

2789
01:51:22,709 --> 01:51:20,480
you've got your head spinning in so many

2790
01:51:25,830 --> 01:51:22,719
different directions you've got you know

2791
01:51:27,910 --> 01:51:25,840
professionally trained liars

2792
01:51:31,430 --> 01:51:27,920
you know you just don't know what to

2793
01:51:32,390 --> 01:51:31,440
believe and and it goes back to mj 12 as

2794
01:51:33,590 --> 01:51:32,400
well

2795
01:51:35,109 --> 01:51:33,600
what what

2796
01:51:36,470 --> 01:51:35,119
what was the purpose of that where did

2797
01:51:38,709 --> 01:51:36,480
they come from

2798
01:51:41,830 --> 01:51:38,719
um dodie's involved in that no matter

2799
01:51:44,070 --> 01:51:41,840
what he wants what he chooses to say now

2800
01:51:46,070 --> 01:51:44,080
i don't want to get sued but i don't

2801
01:51:48,790 --> 01:51:46,080
know what he chooses now

2802
01:51:50,950 --> 01:51:48,800
but it's it seems uh it seems like he's

2803
01:51:54,550 --> 01:51:50,960
involved with everything and

2804
01:51:56,950 --> 01:51:54,560
what was the point source for for mj 12

2805
01:51:59,510 --> 01:51:56,960
you know and was bill moore involved in

2806
01:52:01,350 --> 01:51:59,520
serpo too as well i don't know

2807
01:52:03,270 --> 01:52:01,360
you know i really don't think there's

2808
01:52:05,830 --> 01:52:03,280
any suggestion bill moore's involvement

2809
01:52:07,830 --> 01:52:05,840
i'm not suggesting that i'm just saying

2810
01:52:11,030 --> 01:52:07,840
it just seems like all of these same

2811
01:52:11,910 --> 01:52:11,040
characters keep popping up and with all

2812
01:52:14,470 --> 01:52:11,920
of these

2813
01:52:17,189 --> 01:52:14,480
uh the the crazier the story gets it

2814
01:52:19,510 --> 01:52:17,199
always comes back to just a a couple of

2815
01:52:22,550 --> 01:52:19,520
uh a couple of people

2816
01:52:24,629 --> 01:52:22,560
one one thing jimmy that i found

2817
01:52:26,790 --> 01:52:24,639
so interesting and maybe a little

2818
01:52:29,109 --> 01:52:26,800
disturbing when we interviewed victor

2819
01:52:31,430 --> 01:52:29,119
martinez was that

2820
01:52:32,790 --> 01:52:31,440
he actually had known

2821
01:52:34,950 --> 01:52:32,800
um

2822
01:52:36,709 --> 01:52:34,960
bill moore william moore back in

2823
01:52:37,589 --> 01:52:36,719
the early 80s they'd been part of the

2824
01:52:39,030 --> 01:52:37,599
same

2825
01:52:41,030 --> 01:52:39,040
kind of ufo

2826
01:52:44,950 --> 01:52:41,040
meetings and things in

2827
01:52:47,589 --> 01:52:44,960
in in the la area so the sense that

2828
01:52:50,390 --> 01:52:47,599
again there was that continuity between

2829
01:52:53,109 --> 01:52:50,400
uh victor martinez william moore rick

2830
01:52:54,790 --> 01:52:53,119
doty it's the same exactly same people

2831
01:52:56,950 --> 01:52:54,800
that's all that i'm that's all that i'm

2832
01:52:58,550 --> 01:52:56,960
saying now wait uh hold on you just

2833
01:53:01,030 --> 01:52:58,560
caught me blindsided

2834
01:53:02,470 --> 01:53:01,040
you were able to interview victor

2835
01:53:05,109 --> 01:53:02,480
oh yeah

2836
01:53:07,430 --> 01:53:05,119
yeah i okay well i said in the beginning

2837
01:53:11,109 --> 01:53:07,440
of the interview guys who is in the

2838
01:53:14,229 --> 01:53:13,189
kit green oh

2839
01:53:17,189 --> 01:53:14,239
man

2840
01:53:18,870 --> 01:53:17,199
tell me about victor martinez

2841
01:53:21,669 --> 01:53:18,880
how was that i mean we're

2842
01:53:23,109 --> 01:53:21,679
we're on the serpo subject so we're

2843
01:53:27,430 --> 01:53:23,119
clean here

2844
01:53:29,990 --> 01:53:27,440
what how was i i mean is he angry

2845
01:53:31,910 --> 01:53:30,000
i don't think i don't think so

2846
01:53:32,790 --> 01:53:31,920
there's no reason why he would be

2847
01:53:34,709 --> 01:53:32,800
um

2848
01:53:37,189 --> 01:53:34,719
no we went to see victor we spent an

2849
01:53:38,709 --> 01:53:37,199
afternoon with him we went out for

2850
01:53:40,310 --> 01:53:38,719
for lunch with him

2851
01:53:42,149 --> 01:53:40,320
um

2852
01:53:47,830 --> 01:53:42,159
he

2853
01:53:51,030 --> 01:53:47,840
absolutely certain that

2854
01:53:52,790 --> 01:53:51,040
everything he has read about ufos is is

2855
01:53:55,030 --> 01:53:52,800
true it's not everything that's been

2856
01:53:56,870 --> 01:53:55,040
told about white poses it's true what i

2857
01:53:59,830 --> 01:53:56,880
mean and let me just be a little more

2858
01:54:02,310 --> 01:53:59,840
direct when i say is he angry i mean he

2859
01:54:04,390 --> 01:54:02,320
was part of another you know

2860
01:54:07,430 --> 01:54:04,400
disinformation campaign he

2861
01:54:10,470 --> 01:54:07,440
wholeheartedly i mean that that

2862
01:54:12,629 --> 01:54:10,480
that original website the serpo

2863
01:54:14,310 --> 01:54:12,639
that was one of the most intriguing

2864
01:54:15,910 --> 01:54:14,320
things you could ever sit down and read

2865
01:54:18,870 --> 01:54:15,920
and you're watching this information

2866
01:54:19,589 --> 01:54:18,880
come in and top secret stuff and uh you

2867
01:54:20,870 --> 01:54:19,599
know

2868
01:54:22,550 --> 01:54:20,880
uh under

2869
01:54:25,750 --> 01:54:22,560
just crazy

2870
01:54:28,950 --> 01:54:25,760
reading for a long time and then to for

2871
01:54:30,709 --> 01:54:28,960
him to uh finally find out that you know

2872
01:54:33,350 --> 01:54:30,719
possibly all of this stuff that he was

2873
01:54:36,709 --> 01:54:33,360
fed just wasn't real that's the part i

2874
01:54:38,310 --> 01:54:36,719
mean was he angry disappointed

2875
01:54:40,629 --> 01:54:38,320
how is he today

2876
01:54:44,229 --> 01:54:40,639
it wasn't real i think he still believes

2877
01:54:47,030 --> 01:54:44,239
yeah he he didn't he did not accept that

2878
01:54:49,030 --> 01:54:47,040
rick was behind was actually creating

2879
01:54:52,470 --> 01:54:49,040
the material was feeding him the

2880
01:54:56,149 --> 01:54:52,480
material as part of a campaign he he

2881
01:54:57,750 --> 01:54:56,159
he trusted rick implicitly and um

2882
01:54:59,669 --> 01:54:57,760
if rick told him that

2883
01:55:01,830 --> 01:54:59,679
yeah this was the real thing then he

2884
01:55:03,270 --> 01:55:01,840
believed it so he said if rick had made

2885
01:55:05,910 --> 01:55:03,280
any of that up he must be one of the

2886
01:55:08,310 --> 01:55:05,920
greatest novelists of the 21st century

2887
01:55:10,310 --> 01:55:08,320
that's victor's line can i go right back

2888
01:55:11,669 --> 01:55:10,320
to my point let's kick the dead cow

2889
01:55:14,229 --> 01:55:11,679
again

2890
01:55:15,990 --> 01:55:14,239
you know it's an amazing it's an amazing

2891
01:55:18,390 --> 01:55:16,000
job it's uh

2892
01:55:19,430 --> 01:55:18,400
to pull off disinformation like that

2893
01:55:20,870 --> 01:55:19,440
i'm not

2894
01:55:23,030 --> 01:55:20,880
the

2895
01:55:24,870 --> 01:55:23,040
going back to

2896
01:55:27,109 --> 01:55:24,880
and this is um

2897
01:55:29,350 --> 01:55:27,119
this is the way my brain works

2898
01:55:31,430 --> 01:55:29,360
going back to my point that i brought up

2899
01:55:33,350 --> 01:55:31,440
earlier the story about my friend coming

2900
01:55:36,629 --> 01:55:33,360
over and telling me that somebody was

2901
01:55:38,709 --> 01:55:36,639
recording him right next door i talk him

2902
01:55:41,109 --> 01:55:38,719
out of it and then i find out that it

2903
01:55:43,669 --> 01:55:41,119
was actually true and

2904
01:55:47,830 --> 01:55:43,679
i that was an accident the way that i

2905
01:55:49,669 --> 01:55:47,840
found out and my brain hurt after that

2906
01:55:52,229 --> 01:55:49,679
because i just

2907
01:55:54,709 --> 01:55:52,239
i was convinced so convinced that i was

2908
01:55:56,629 --> 01:55:54,719
able to talk my friend down

2909
01:55:58,390 --> 01:55:56,639
and convince him and then i find out

2910
01:56:01,109 --> 01:55:58,400
something otherwise

2911
01:56:02,550 --> 01:56:01,119
with project serpo

2912
01:56:05,750 --> 01:56:02,560
i don't know

2913
01:56:07,589 --> 01:56:05,760
what if what if it was true

2914
01:56:10,709 --> 01:56:07,599
you know what if we find out later that

2915
01:56:13,669 --> 01:56:10,719
this actually did you just don't know

2916
01:56:16,470 --> 01:56:13,679
what to believe and before you want to

2917
01:56:17,910 --> 01:56:16,480
uh back off on something uh mark you had

2918
01:56:20,629 --> 01:56:17,920
said earlier i'm not going to try to

2919
01:56:22,950 --> 01:56:20,639
convince you you know otherwise but you

2920
01:56:24,870 --> 01:56:22,960
had said earlier you know i i'm

2921
01:56:27,350 --> 01:56:24,880
convinced that it's not real project

2922
01:56:30,870 --> 01:56:27,360
serpo didn't happen okay that's fine

2923
01:56:31,910 --> 01:56:30,880
but what if you know and

2924
01:56:36,229 --> 01:56:31,920
that's the

2925
01:56:38,149 --> 01:56:36,239
disinformation information

2926
01:56:39,270 --> 01:56:38,159
yes i don't know i wish it had happened

2927
01:56:41,910 --> 01:56:39,280
you know i wouldn't i couldn't be

2928
01:56:44,229 --> 01:56:41,920
happier than if we hadn't made contact

2929
01:56:45,990 --> 01:56:44,239
with benevolent extraterrestrials that

2930
01:56:47,910 --> 01:56:46,000
would make my you know that would just

2931
01:56:50,149 --> 01:56:47,920
be the most wonderful thing that

2932
01:56:52,310 --> 01:56:50,159
happened to any of us but

2933
01:56:54,709 --> 01:56:52,320
um

2934
01:56:56,629 --> 01:56:54,719
well in this case i mean i think the the

2935
01:56:58,390 --> 01:56:56,639
sort of i think actually some of the

2936
01:57:01,030 --> 01:56:58,400
other possibilities

2937
01:57:03,750 --> 01:57:01,040
uh for what serpo might have represented

2938
01:57:06,790 --> 01:57:03,760
are actually just as fascinating i like

2939
01:57:08,149 --> 01:57:06,800
to think that it might have been

2940
01:57:09,270 --> 01:57:08,159
some kind of

2941
01:57:10,550 --> 01:57:09,280
tracking

2942
01:57:12,070 --> 01:57:10,560
sort of uh

2943
01:57:13,750 --> 01:57:12,080
had a role in

2944
01:57:15,270 --> 01:57:13,760
tracking the way that information is

2945
01:57:18,149 --> 01:57:15,280
circulated around the internet you

2946
01:57:19,589 --> 01:57:18,159
dropper drop an idea or a meme or a

2947
01:57:21,830 --> 01:57:19,599
piece of data

2948
01:57:24,229 --> 01:57:21,840
you know at a very specific point and

2949
01:57:25,750 --> 01:57:24,239
then you track it the way that it flows

2950
01:57:28,629 --> 01:57:25,760
around the internet that's actually

2951
01:57:30,310 --> 01:57:28,639
sociologically extremely useful for

2952
01:57:33,350 --> 01:57:30,320
sociologists for

2953
01:57:34,950 --> 01:57:33,360
corporations for intelligence agencies

2954
01:57:36,950 --> 01:57:34,960
for a government you know that has all

2955
01:57:39,669 --> 01:57:36,960
sorts of purposes

2956
01:57:40,629 --> 01:57:39,679
so perhaps that was what it was doing

2957
01:57:42,470 --> 01:57:40,639
um

2958
01:57:45,030 --> 01:57:42,480
you know it could have just been

2959
01:57:46,709 --> 01:57:45,040
someone's half-finished sci-fi story

2960
01:57:48,070 --> 01:57:46,719
that they wanted to get out into the

2961
01:57:50,310 --> 01:57:48,080
world and they would have some

2962
01:57:52,550 --> 01:57:50,320
satisfaction knowing that they you know

2963
01:57:54,870 --> 01:57:52,560
created a sensation

2964
01:57:56,629 --> 01:57:54,880
who knows it has to be said if it was a

2965
01:57:58,390 --> 01:57:56,639
major hoax like that

2966
01:57:59,910 --> 01:57:58,400
it's amazing that the perpetrators

2967
01:58:01,669 --> 01:57:59,920
haven't actually been unmasked i mean

2968
01:58:04,070 --> 01:58:01,679
you don't get away with lying for long

2969
01:58:12,550 --> 01:58:04,080
do you i no i disagree

2970
01:58:17,270 --> 01:58:15,830
you know the joy in that kind of hoaxing

2971
01:58:19,189 --> 01:58:17,280
if that's the word and that kind of

2972
01:58:21,030 --> 01:58:19,199
pranking is

2973
01:58:23,030 --> 01:58:21,040
getting away with it and

2974
01:58:24,870 --> 01:58:23,040
you know if you confess to it you

2975
01:58:28,149 --> 01:58:24,880
haven't got away with it well this is

2976
01:58:29,910 --> 01:58:28,159
this is i'll address both of your views

2977
01:58:32,229 --> 01:58:29,920
because you're on opposite sides of the

2978
01:58:35,589 --> 01:58:32,239
fence there and but this is

2979
01:58:39,750 --> 01:58:35,599
this is the thing with a hoax i mean a

2980
01:58:42,790 --> 01:58:39,760
person can't be a hoax a hoax has to be

2981
01:58:44,310 --> 01:58:42,800
uh you can be a hoaxer but the hoax the

2982
01:58:45,750 --> 01:58:44,320
story itself

2983
01:58:48,070 --> 01:58:45,760
is uh

2984
01:58:50,550 --> 01:58:48,080
somebody will always get caught you

2985
01:58:52,229 --> 01:58:50,560
can't keep the lie going there's if

2986
01:58:53,990 --> 01:58:52,239
there's other people involved and it's a

2987
01:58:56,709 --> 01:58:54,000
conspiracy you know if there's more than

2988
01:58:58,709 --> 01:58:56,719
one person involved with the hoax you're

2989
01:59:01,030 --> 01:58:58,719
gonna get caught you can't keep the lie

2990
01:59:04,629 --> 01:59:01,040
going forever you can't

2991
01:59:05,830 --> 01:59:04,639
but the government has managed to

2992
01:59:08,149 --> 01:59:05,840
pull off

2993
01:59:09,990 --> 01:59:08,159
deception but you know i talked about

2994
01:59:11,669 --> 01:59:10,000
the manhattan project earlier that's a

2995
01:59:13,270 --> 01:59:11,679
good example of being able to cover

2996
01:59:14,870 --> 01:59:13,280
something up

2997
01:59:16,629 --> 01:59:14,880
roswell

2998
01:59:17,589 --> 01:59:16,639
project mogul

2999
01:59:19,830 --> 01:59:17,599
uh

3000
01:59:21,430 --> 01:59:19,840
dummies being thrown out of planes with

3001
01:59:25,510 --> 01:59:21,440
parachutes all of these different

3002
01:59:28,629 --> 01:59:25,520
deceptions has kept uh the the the basic

3003
01:59:30,790 --> 01:59:28,639
story of roswell completely covered up

3004
01:59:33,030 --> 01:59:30,800
what we we don't know what happened in

3005
01:59:35,350 --> 01:59:33,040
roswell because the government stayed

3006
01:59:38,310 --> 01:59:35,360
quiet about it for so long or told

3007
01:59:41,430 --> 01:59:38,320
different stories for so long that now

3008
01:59:44,070 --> 01:59:41,440
that deception in roswell is completely

3009
01:59:45,270 --> 01:59:44,080
clean here we are 60 years later 70

3010
01:59:47,430 --> 01:59:45,280
years later

3011
01:59:49,270 --> 01:59:47,440
uh out of roswell and we still don't

3012
01:59:50,870 --> 01:59:49,280
know the truth so they were successful

3013
01:59:53,589 --> 01:59:50,880
there we don't we don't know what the

3014
01:59:55,350 --> 01:59:53,599
truth is and then another example is

3015
02:00:00,629 --> 01:59:55,360
john teeter

3016
02:00:04,229 --> 02:00:00,639
yeah and his story yeah and and because

3017
02:00:06,950 --> 02:00:04,239
of teeter now is it a hoax or not

3018
02:00:09,510 --> 02:00:06,960
well nobody's been busted

3019
02:00:13,430 --> 02:00:09,520
and here we are now

3020
02:00:14,870 --> 02:00:13,440
we're in 2014 so we're 15 years into the

3021
02:00:19,270 --> 02:00:14,880
teeter story

3022
02:00:21,109 --> 02:00:19,280
and as complex and as drawn out as it is

3023
02:00:23,189 --> 02:00:21,119
that you would have thought

3024
02:00:25,510 --> 02:00:23,199
somebody would have slipped up and

3025
02:00:28,310 --> 02:00:25,520
gotten caught or somebody would have

3026
02:00:30,149 --> 02:00:28,320
been busted or knocked somebody out you

3027
02:00:31,830 --> 02:00:30,159
know and said hey i know the real guy

3028
02:00:34,310 --> 02:00:31,840
this is how it went down

3029
02:00:36,470 --> 02:00:34,320
and and because of that

3030
02:00:38,550 --> 02:00:36,480
the story's true

3031
02:00:40,470 --> 02:00:38,560
you know until somebody's been busted

3032
02:00:43,030 --> 02:00:40,480
it's not a hoax

3033
02:00:45,750 --> 02:00:43,040
do you understand my point

3034
02:00:47,750 --> 02:00:45,760
but like i'm saying who whoever

3035
02:00:50,709 --> 02:00:47,760
was behind the john t

3036
02:00:53,669 --> 02:00:50,719
story which was just a wonderful

3037
02:00:56,149 --> 02:00:53,679
project on that somebody uh you know if

3038
02:00:58,390 --> 02:00:56,159
it assuming that it wasn't a real time

3039
02:01:00,070 --> 02:00:58,400
traveler right um

3040
02:01:02,390 --> 02:01:00,080
you know the

3041
02:01:05,350 --> 02:01:02,400
the pleasure is gone once you've told

3042
02:01:07,430 --> 02:01:05,360
people that that was that was your

3043
02:01:09,510 --> 02:01:07,440
creation i think to me

3044
02:01:12,390 --> 02:01:09,520
well i wasn't john

3045
02:01:15,830 --> 02:01:14,070
you wouldn't confess it if you would no

3046
02:01:18,229 --> 02:01:15,840
it'll be your next it'll be it's the

3047
02:01:22,070 --> 02:01:18,239
same with um

3048
02:01:22,790 --> 02:01:22,080
i know i mean with that john and i you

3049
02:01:23,830 --> 02:01:22,800
know

3050
02:01:26,870 --> 02:01:23,840
uh

3051
02:01:28,229 --> 02:01:26,880
were not tita not john not john tito

3052
02:01:30,310 --> 02:01:28,239
john lemberg and i

3053
02:01:33,350 --> 02:01:30,320
uh were you know were making crop

3054
02:01:34,149 --> 02:01:33,360
circles for years john for many years

3055
02:01:36,709 --> 02:01:34,159
um

3056
02:01:38,470 --> 02:01:36,719
and there was no joy in you know

3057
02:01:40,310 --> 02:01:38,480
identifying which

3058
02:01:42,229 --> 02:01:40,320
circles you'd made or anything like that

3059
02:01:42,950 --> 02:01:42,239
so

3060
02:01:46,229 --> 02:01:42,960
what

3061
02:01:47,830 --> 02:01:46,239
sorry i thought you knew

3062
02:01:51,430 --> 02:01:47,840
what you did

3063
02:01:53,910 --> 02:01:51,440
ah here we go

3064
02:01:56,790 --> 02:01:53,920
no i didn't know that okay

3065
02:01:58,390 --> 02:01:56,800
well that's true could you tell

3066
02:01:59,990 --> 02:01:58,400
no no no i mean

3067
02:02:03,030 --> 02:02:00,000
no no no could you tell that i didn't

3068
02:02:06,229 --> 02:02:05,030
were a part of a team that that made

3069
02:02:08,149 --> 02:02:06,239
them certainly

3070
02:02:10,470 --> 02:02:08,159
uh john's email address is

3071
02:02:13,510 --> 02:02:10,480
circlemakers.com so it's not you know oh

3072
02:02:15,669 --> 02:02:13,520
yeah i i did see that but uh i didn't

3073
02:02:17,350 --> 02:02:15,679
make the connection um

3074
02:02:19,910 --> 02:02:17,360
no i did not know

3075
02:02:21,990 --> 02:02:19,920
so that gave us a particular insight

3076
02:02:23,430 --> 02:02:22,000
into the way that these kinds of

3077
02:02:25,990 --> 02:02:23,440
deception

3078
02:02:28,550 --> 02:02:26,000
operations kind of work and the kinds of

3079
02:02:30,790 --> 02:02:28,560
impacts that they can have

3080
02:02:32,470 --> 02:02:30,800
on a community um

3081
02:02:33,910 --> 02:02:32,480
and we weren't working

3082
02:02:34,790 --> 02:02:33,920
for the government we weren't working

3083
02:02:37,430 --> 02:02:34,800
for

3084
02:02:39,669 --> 02:02:37,440
uh

3085
02:02:40,950 --> 02:02:39,679
anybody but ourselves too many people

3086
02:02:42,390 --> 02:02:40,960
have suggested you are working for the

3087
02:02:44,550 --> 02:02:42,400
government yes there's a lot of stories

3088
02:02:48,070 --> 02:02:44,560
out there that mark works for an i5 or

3089
02:02:49,270 --> 02:02:48,080
mi6 mi6 but it's not actually true but

3090
02:02:54,709 --> 02:02:49,280
um

3091
02:02:54,719 --> 02:02:57,270
statements

3092
02:03:01,270 --> 02:02:59,430
but um yeah the

3093
02:03:05,189 --> 02:03:01,280
you know the the reason for doing them

3094
02:03:06,390 --> 02:03:05,199
is not to uh at the time is not to

3095
02:03:07,910 --> 02:03:06,400
uh

3096
02:03:10,709 --> 02:03:07,920
you know to to

3097
02:03:12,390 --> 02:03:10,719
is to to create something and then just

3098
02:03:14,629 --> 02:03:12,400
watch the way that it

3099
02:03:17,589 --> 02:03:14,639
operates you know without

3100
02:03:20,870 --> 02:03:17,599
in the world how it's of how it becomes

3101
02:03:23,189 --> 02:03:20,880
its own entity really

3102
02:03:26,470 --> 02:03:23,199
were you guys able to talk to paul ryan

3103
02:03:28,149 --> 02:03:26,480
by the way bill ryan or bill ryan yes

3104
02:03:30,149 --> 02:03:28,159
yeah he was the starting point for the

3105
02:03:32,470 --> 02:03:30,159
whole film actually

3106
02:03:33,830 --> 02:03:32,480
um not not the starting point but he was

3107
02:03:35,109 --> 02:03:33,840
the first person we interviewed and it

3108
02:03:37,109 --> 02:03:35,119
was because of

3109
02:03:39,669 --> 02:03:37,119
bill that we were able to

3110
02:03:43,910 --> 02:03:39,679
talk to rick so yes bill is in the film

3111
02:03:47,189 --> 02:03:43,920
too bill is there yeah oh man

3112
02:03:49,910 --> 02:03:47,199
let's let's let's get past let's move on

3113
02:03:53,030 --> 02:03:49,920
from serpo but we're going to circle the

3114
02:03:55,270 --> 02:03:53,040
wagons right back around the same

3115
02:03:57,189 --> 02:03:55,280
the same uh same

3116
02:03:59,669 --> 02:03:57,199
uh what's the what's the word i want to

3117
02:04:01,510 --> 02:03:59,679
use culprits i think is the right

3118
02:04:03,669 --> 02:04:01,520
the usual suspects yeah the usual

3119
02:04:05,350 --> 02:04:03,679
suspects and

3120
02:04:07,750 --> 02:04:05,360
uh because

3121
02:04:08,790 --> 02:04:07,760
i want to talk about the aviary

3122
02:04:11,830 --> 02:04:08,800
and

3123
02:04:12,790 --> 02:04:11,840
uh when we talk about a timeline on the

3124
02:04:13,589 --> 02:04:12,800
internet

3125
02:04:16,070 --> 02:04:13,599
uh

3126
02:04:17,589 --> 02:04:16,080
on fascinating subjects one you know you

3127
02:04:20,390 --> 02:04:17,599
know like teeter

3128
02:04:22,550 --> 02:04:20,400
or uh mj 12 the way that that happened

3129
02:04:26,070 --> 02:04:22,560
and bob lazar the way that that you know

3130
02:04:29,750 --> 02:04:26,080
area 51. there was a website called ufo

3131
02:04:32,310 --> 02:04:29,760
mind uh back then that was uh

3132
02:04:34,470 --> 02:04:32,320
um one of the

3133
02:04:38,950 --> 02:04:34,480
one of the best uh glenn campbell's

3134
02:04:41,750 --> 02:04:38,960
website and yeah uh just incredible so

3135
02:04:44,149 --> 02:04:41,760
uh the aviary plays

3136
02:04:46,790 --> 02:04:44,159
in with all of that back then and it

3137
02:04:50,229 --> 02:04:46,800
made fascinating reading

3138
02:04:53,189 --> 02:04:50,239
the uh code names and and uh

3139
02:04:55,189 --> 02:04:53,199
and so forth so let's let's

3140
02:04:57,109 --> 02:04:55,199
ty i mean let's let's talk about the

3141
02:04:58,790 --> 02:04:57,119
aviary who

3142
02:05:02,950 --> 02:04:58,800
who was the

3143
02:05:06,470 --> 02:05:02,960
i don't know the the king bird

3144
02:05:09,350 --> 02:05:06,480
um and and who were the players in it

3145
02:05:10,870 --> 02:05:09,360
um i mean i think the

3146
02:05:13,510 --> 02:05:10,880
you've got bob collins the actual

3147
02:05:16,870 --> 02:05:13,520
backstory to the ovary is that

3148
02:05:19,030 --> 02:05:16,880
these were back in the early days when

3149
02:05:21,430 --> 02:05:19,040
william moore was kind of

3150
02:05:23,030 --> 02:05:21,440
working with richard doty

3151
02:05:24,870 --> 02:05:23,040
working with air force officers of

3152
02:05:28,390 --> 02:05:24,880
special investigations he began to make

3153
02:05:29,350 --> 02:05:28,400
contact with a number of other people

3154
02:05:30,390 --> 02:05:29,360
within

3155
02:05:32,149 --> 02:05:30,400
various

3156
02:05:35,510 --> 02:05:32,159
military and and

3157
02:05:36,790 --> 02:05:35,520
intelligence and so government positions

3158
02:05:38,310 --> 02:05:36,800
and

3159
02:05:40,790 --> 02:05:38,320
they

3160
02:05:43,589 --> 02:05:40,800
were surpassing him information that he

3161
02:05:45,750 --> 02:05:43,599
was sort of using to

3162
02:05:47,270 --> 02:05:45,760
essentially confirm his beliefs about

3163
02:05:49,430 --> 02:05:47,280
extraterrestrials

3164
02:05:51,270 --> 02:05:49,440
um about extraterrestrial visitation was

3165
02:05:53,430 --> 02:05:51,280
that siren okay

3166
02:05:55,430 --> 02:05:53,440
it does it's obvious you guys are having

3167
02:05:58,070 --> 02:05:55,440
riots in the streets yeah

3168
02:06:01,350 --> 02:05:58,080
but um so the ovary

3169
02:06:02,950 --> 02:06:01,360
was came about because bill ryan and his

3170
02:06:04,310 --> 02:06:02,960
colleague jamie

3171
02:06:06,629 --> 02:06:04,320
shandera

3172
02:06:08,790 --> 02:06:06,639
basically gave code names to all of

3173
02:06:11,830 --> 02:06:08,800
these contacts that they had

3174
02:06:14,149 --> 02:06:11,840
and they themselves were

3175
02:06:16,870 --> 02:06:14,159
mostly centered around

3176
02:06:18,709 --> 02:06:16,880
colonel john alexander who i'm sure

3177
02:06:20,950 --> 02:06:18,719
you're familiar with who's also in the

3178
02:06:22,550 --> 02:06:20,960
film who's also who's is he in the film

3179
02:06:23,669 --> 02:06:22,560
no actually he's not not in the film we

3180
02:06:25,189 --> 02:06:23,679
did interview him but he's not in the

3181
02:06:28,310 --> 02:06:25,199
film um

3182
02:06:30,390 --> 02:06:28,320
but um he had put together what what

3183
02:06:32,950 --> 02:06:30,400
became known as the ufo working group

3184
02:06:34,310 --> 02:06:32,960
which was a kind of loosenet

3185
02:06:35,750 --> 02:06:34,320
collection of

3186
02:06:37,910 --> 02:06:35,760
people who

3187
02:06:40,390 --> 02:06:37,920
some of whom you know

3188
02:06:41,750 --> 02:06:40,400
if anyone knew anything about what the

3189
02:06:44,550 --> 02:06:41,760
government or the military knew about

3190
02:06:48,870 --> 02:06:44,560
ufos these guys would know

3191
02:06:51,109 --> 02:06:48,880
and they became the ovary essentially

3192
02:06:53,750 --> 02:06:51,119
but what

3193
02:06:55,589 --> 02:06:53,760
we now know about what they knew is that

3194
02:06:56,629 --> 02:06:55,599
they knew nothing and they were all just

3195
02:06:58,310 --> 02:06:56,639
trying to

3196
02:07:00,550 --> 02:06:58,320
piece the mystery together for

3197
02:07:02,069 --> 02:07:00,560
themselves and they were in positions to

3198
02:07:04,229 --> 02:07:02,079
know a little bit more than the rest of

3199
02:07:06,229 --> 02:07:04,239
us but they still didn't know

3200
02:07:09,350 --> 02:07:06,239
no no i'm confused

3201
02:07:11,589 --> 02:07:09,360
i'm confused how could the aviary

3202
02:07:14,390 --> 02:07:11,599
not know anything when

3203
02:07:16,870 --> 02:07:14,400
it was bob collins uh

3204
02:07:18,069 --> 02:07:16,880
richard dodie didn't they know

3205
02:07:20,069 --> 02:07:18,079
everything

3206
02:07:22,709 --> 02:07:20,079
they they knew

3207
02:07:24,709 --> 02:07:22,719
more than we did but they didn't know

3208
02:07:26,470 --> 02:07:24,719
you know they they the idea was that all

3209
02:07:29,270 --> 02:07:26,480
of them would have little pieces of the

3210
02:07:31,189 --> 02:07:29,280
jigsaw and then between them they would

3211
02:07:32,870 --> 02:07:31,199
piece the whole thing together but i

3212
02:07:34,390 --> 02:07:32,880
think what they pieced together is that

3213
02:07:36,950 --> 02:07:34,400
they

3214
02:07:38,830 --> 02:07:36,960
didn't know that you know that there was

3215
02:07:42,310 --> 02:07:38,840
there was either

3216
02:07:44,229 --> 02:07:42,320
another security door that they couldn't

3217
02:07:46,390 --> 02:07:44,239
get through or

3218
02:07:48,870 --> 02:07:46,400
that nobody knew and i personally

3219
02:07:51,669 --> 02:07:48,880
subscribed to that uh

3220
02:07:54,390 --> 02:07:51,679
latter suggestion that nobody knows

3221
02:07:58,550 --> 02:07:54,400
really what's going on did jamie

3222
02:08:02,950 --> 02:08:00,709
how do how does

3223
02:08:04,550 --> 02:08:02,960
i guess i'm gonna have to ask you your

3224
02:08:06,550 --> 02:08:04,560
opinion on this i don't think there's

3225
02:08:07,589 --> 02:08:06,560
any factual things to back any of this

3226
02:08:08,870 --> 02:08:07,599
up but

3227
02:08:14,470 --> 02:08:08,880
what was

3228
02:08:17,030 --> 02:08:14,480
was he merely

3229
02:08:19,830 --> 02:08:17,040
a pawn was he just in the way

3230
02:08:22,709 --> 02:08:19,840
and i'm referring to not only the aviary

3231
02:08:27,030 --> 02:08:22,719
but his relationship with dodie

3232
02:08:27,910 --> 02:08:27,040
um bill moore uh the mj 12 documents and

3233
02:08:33,510 --> 02:08:27,920
and

3234
02:08:35,270 --> 02:08:33,520
was he was he was he was here was he a

3235
02:08:37,750 --> 02:08:35,280
mirage guy

3236
02:08:40,149 --> 02:08:37,760
i have i have to say i haven't we didn't

3237
02:08:42,709 --> 02:08:40,159
meet him we haven't spoken to him he as

3238
02:08:43,910 --> 02:08:42,719
far as i know is for many years been out

3239
02:08:45,910 --> 02:08:43,920
of the

3240
02:08:47,830 --> 02:08:45,920
loop and um

3241
02:08:49,589 --> 02:08:47,840
all i know is that

3242
02:08:52,310 --> 02:08:49,599
the

3243
02:08:55,350 --> 02:08:52,320
original roll of film that contained

3244
02:08:57,750 --> 02:08:55,360
uh photographs of the mj12 papers was

3245
02:08:59,350 --> 02:08:57,760
sent to his address in los angeles that

3246
02:09:01,750 --> 02:08:59,360
he he worked in

3247
02:09:04,870 --> 02:09:01,760
in television there

3248
02:09:07,350 --> 02:09:04,880
in the mid 1980s and he was a

3249
02:09:08,950 --> 02:09:07,360
friend and and colleague of of bill

3250
02:09:10,149 --> 02:09:08,960
morris but i don't know

3251
02:09:11,430 --> 02:09:10,159
more than that

3252
02:09:14,390 --> 02:09:11,440
um

3253
02:09:17,589 --> 02:09:14,400
i did hear that he got very

3254
02:09:20,149 --> 02:09:17,599
sort of emotionally and

3255
02:09:22,790 --> 02:09:20,159
ontologically invested in the ufo

3256
02:09:24,470 --> 02:09:22,800
subject and came to believe that it was

3257
02:09:25,589 --> 02:09:24,480
that the material he was dealing with

3258
02:09:30,550 --> 02:09:25,599
was

3259
02:09:32,550 --> 02:09:30,560
but i don't know anything else beyond

3260
02:09:34,629 --> 02:09:32,560
that i mean bill moore is the really

3261
02:09:35,750 --> 02:09:34,639
crucial figure i think in this rather

3262
02:09:40,550 --> 02:09:35,760
than

3263
02:09:41,830 --> 02:09:40,560
do you think so if we flip everything

3264
02:09:42,790 --> 02:09:41,840
back around

3265
02:09:53,430 --> 02:09:42,800
uh

3266
02:09:55,109 --> 02:09:53,440
and selected jamie and jamie didn't know

3267
02:09:57,350 --> 02:09:55,119
it was coming he didn't know that this

3268
02:09:59,350 --> 02:09:57,360
role of film was coming in the mail

3269
02:10:02,629 --> 02:09:59,360
it's possible yes i mean we we really

3270
02:10:04,629 --> 02:10:02,639
don't know on that on that front um

3271
02:10:06,709 --> 02:10:04,639
it might make sense because he had

3272
02:10:08,310 --> 02:10:06,719
television connections maybe they

3273
02:10:10,470 --> 02:10:08,320
thought

3274
02:10:12,390 --> 02:10:10,480
they being whoever was behind the mj12

3275
02:10:14,310 --> 02:10:12,400
papers thought that

3276
02:10:16,310 --> 02:10:14,320
someone who worked in television would

3277
02:10:18,390 --> 02:10:16,320
be a good person to

3278
02:10:21,350 --> 02:10:18,400
get the material to what's interesting

3279
02:10:23,990 --> 02:10:21,360
about the mj 12 papers is there were

3280
02:10:25,990 --> 02:10:24,000
several attempts to get them out

3281
02:10:27,589 --> 02:10:26,000
to the world that failed or not several

3282
02:10:29,510 --> 02:10:27,599
there was at least one

3283
02:10:31,189 --> 02:10:29,520
other attempt to get them

3284
02:10:33,430 --> 02:10:31,199
out into the world that didn't work so

3285
02:10:35,990 --> 02:10:33,440
whoever was behind them was

3286
02:10:37,589 --> 02:10:36,000
specifically so targeting certain people

3287
02:10:39,990 --> 02:10:37,599
to send them to

3288
02:10:41,510 --> 02:10:40,000
and one of the first people who sent

3289
02:10:45,270 --> 02:10:41,520
them

3290
02:10:46,950 --> 02:10:45,280
beginnings

3291
02:10:50,390 --> 02:10:46,960
tell me about that event

3292
02:10:53,350 --> 02:10:50,400
that was um they were presented to

3293
02:10:54,390 --> 02:10:53,360
a woman in this country a very a

3294
02:10:57,350 --> 02:10:54,400
brilliant

3295
02:10:59,990 --> 02:10:57,360
ufo researcher who's still active called

3296
02:11:02,870 --> 02:11:00,000
jenny randles an author and researcher

3297
02:11:03,750 --> 02:11:02,880
and she was presented with the material

3298
02:11:06,870 --> 02:11:03,760
uh

3299
02:11:10,470 --> 02:11:06,880
very early on and she rejected it

3300
02:11:11,830 --> 02:11:10,480
and then it was presented to timothy

3301
02:11:13,830 --> 02:11:11,840
good

3302
02:11:15,270 --> 02:11:13,840
who was putting his book above top

3303
02:11:17,510 --> 02:11:15,280
secret together and they became the

3304
02:11:20,229 --> 02:11:17,520
appendix to above top secret right which

3305
02:11:22,709 --> 02:11:20,239
came out i think in 1986 and that was

3306
02:11:26,069 --> 02:11:22,719
the first time anyone saw them

3307
02:11:28,229 --> 02:11:26,079
so whoever was behind them was

3308
02:11:29,510 --> 02:11:28,239
you know was keen for them to be

3309
02:11:32,390 --> 02:11:29,520
to be seen

3310
02:11:33,990 --> 02:11:32,400
um there's also a very interesting story

3311
02:11:35,109 --> 02:11:34,000
relating to this

3312
02:11:37,990 --> 02:11:35,119
um

3313
02:11:39,350 --> 02:11:38,000
a guy one of bill moore's kind of

3314
02:11:43,830 --> 02:11:39,360
colleagues

3315
02:11:47,189 --> 02:11:43,840
was a man called lee graham who worked

3316
02:11:48,950 --> 02:11:47,199
in the defense industry as an engineer

3317
02:11:50,069 --> 02:11:48,960
in california

3318
02:11:50,950 --> 02:11:50,079
and

3319
02:11:55,669 --> 02:11:50,960
he

3320
02:11:57,430 --> 02:11:55,679
and his colleague ron rager were

3321
02:11:59,189 --> 02:11:57,440
working on satellites and they later

3322
02:12:01,109 --> 02:11:59,199
worked on

3323
02:12:02,470 --> 02:12:01,119
some compartmentalized parts of the

3324
02:12:07,589 --> 02:12:02,480
stealth

3325
02:12:09,990 --> 02:12:07,599
this is in the early 80s and um

3326
02:12:17,430 --> 02:12:10,000
and voyager 2 and maybe voyager as well

3327
02:12:21,430 --> 02:12:19,510
let's take it show them to people

3328
02:12:23,350 --> 02:12:21,440
at the at his workplace

3329
02:12:25,270 --> 02:12:23,360
and one of the security guys there

3330
02:12:26,870 --> 02:12:25,280
actually reported him

3331
02:12:29,270 --> 02:12:26,880
to uh

3332
02:12:30,149 --> 02:12:29,280
you know to them to the military saying

3333
02:12:32,550 --> 02:12:30,159
that he

3334
02:12:34,390 --> 02:12:32,560
had access he had these documents that

3335
02:12:35,910 --> 02:12:34,400
were said to be classified that

3336
02:12:38,229 --> 02:12:35,920
he shouldn't have

3337
02:12:40,310 --> 02:12:38,239
and what happened then which is really

3338
02:12:42,629 --> 02:12:40,320
really important to the story

3339
02:12:45,990 --> 02:12:42,639
is that he was visited by

3340
02:12:47,910 --> 02:12:46,000
a guy called barry hennessey who was

3341
02:12:50,069 --> 02:12:47,920
the head of the

3342
02:12:51,270 --> 02:12:50,079
security program surrounding the stealth

3343
02:12:52,069 --> 02:12:51,280
project

3344
02:12:54,149 --> 02:12:52,079
who

3345
02:12:56,709 --> 02:12:54,159
came to see lee graham and essentially

3346
02:12:59,109 --> 02:12:56,719
told him to keep distributing

3347
02:13:00,229 --> 02:12:59,119
the mj-12 papers

3348
02:13:00,950 --> 02:13:00,239
um

3349
02:13:05,270 --> 02:13:00,960
so

3350
02:13:07,109 --> 02:13:05,280
there and that's you know that's that's

3351
02:13:09,830 --> 02:13:07,119
the crucial thing whoever was behind it

3352
02:13:12,550 --> 02:13:09,840
they wanted people to see

3353
02:13:14,629 --> 02:13:12,560
okay let's take a break right there uh

3354
02:13:16,229 --> 02:13:14,639
we'll pick up with the mj12 documents

3355
02:13:18,629 --> 02:13:16,239
when we come back we're talking with

3356
02:13:20,709 --> 02:13:18,639
mark pilkington and roland denning and

3357
02:13:22,149 --> 02:13:20,719
their new documentary mirage men this is

3358
02:13:24,149 --> 02:13:22,159
fade to black i'm your host jimmy church

3359
02:13:40,310 --> 02:13:24,159
on the dark matter radio network stay

3360
02:13:47,270 --> 02:13:42,870
despite popular opinion

3361
02:13:52,950 --> 02:13:49,669
but listening to jimmy church will

3362
02:13:57,430 --> 02:13:52,960
on the dark matter radio network

3363
02:14:14,310 --> 02:13:59,109
on the jimmychurchradio.com matter radio

3364
02:14:14,320 --> 02:14:34,550
this is kjcr jimmychurchradio.com

3365
02:14:38,870 --> 02:14:36,790
from the dark matter radio network we

3366
02:14:41,510 --> 02:14:38,880
are live from london england

3367
02:14:42,950 --> 02:14:41,520
with mark bilkington and roland denning

3368
02:14:44,390 --> 02:14:42,960
and their new

3369
02:14:47,669 --> 02:14:44,400
documentary

3370
02:14:49,350 --> 02:14:47,679
called mirage man now guys after uh i'm

3371
02:14:51,830 --> 02:14:49,360
sorry right before the break

3372
02:14:53,109 --> 02:14:51,840
we were talking about the mj 12

3373
02:14:56,550 --> 02:14:53,119
documents

3374
02:14:59,510 --> 02:14:56,560
and this is i want uh some quick

3375
02:15:02,790 --> 02:14:59,520
reaction uh

3376
02:15:05,430 --> 02:15:02,800
with um mj12

3377
02:15:06,550 --> 02:15:05,440
was it part of

3378
02:15:08,870 --> 02:15:06,560
oh

3379
02:15:11,589 --> 02:15:08,880
mj-12 is either two things

3380
02:15:14,709 --> 02:15:11,599
uh it's either private citizens

3381
02:15:16,229 --> 02:15:14,719
chasing money and trying to

3382
02:15:18,790 --> 02:15:16,239
make the buck

3383
02:15:20,950 --> 02:15:18,800
or it is part of uh

3384
02:15:24,629 --> 02:15:20,960
another disinformation campaign on

3385
02:15:26,470 --> 02:15:24,639
behalf of the government uh what say you

3386
02:15:28,149 --> 02:15:26,480
i can't see how anybody's gonna make a

3387
02:15:29,830 --> 02:15:28,159
buck out of it so i think it's the

3388
02:15:33,350 --> 02:15:29,840
latter

3389
02:15:35,350 --> 02:15:33,360
i would i would typically uh throw a

3390
02:15:37,910 --> 02:15:35,360
curveball and say it could have been

3391
02:15:40,310 --> 02:15:37,920
people just doing it for kicks

3392
02:15:42,550 --> 02:15:40,320
which is a lot which is a good reason in

3393
02:15:45,750 --> 02:15:42,560
itself however having said that i would

3394
02:15:48,470 --> 02:15:45,760
also i'm fairly sure that it had

3395
02:15:51,589 --> 02:15:48,480
afosi behind it

3396
02:15:53,830 --> 02:15:51,599
oh really my hunch is that it's okay so

3397
02:15:56,229 --> 02:15:53,840
behind it wasn't the package postmarked

3398
02:15:59,750 --> 02:15:56,239
uh albuquerque albuquerque that went to

3399
02:16:02,229 --> 02:15:59,760
jamie shandira yeah more yes but

3400
02:16:04,709 --> 02:16:02,239
but i think um

3401
02:16:06,470 --> 02:16:04,719
the story looking back in hindsight

3402
02:16:09,270 --> 02:16:06,480
without naming names

3403
02:16:11,109 --> 02:16:09,280
some careers needed to be kick-started

3404
02:16:13,350 --> 02:16:11,119
again whether you were writing books or

3405
02:16:15,350 --> 02:16:13,360
making documentaries or

3406
02:16:18,870 --> 02:16:15,360
or what have you

3407
02:16:21,030 --> 02:16:18,880
um and then potential books and stuff

3408
02:16:23,910 --> 02:16:21,040
were also in the works

3409
02:16:27,270 --> 02:16:23,920
and having this started would help the

3410
02:16:28,390 --> 02:16:27,280
financial gain for a few of the figures

3411
02:16:29,430 --> 02:16:28,400
involved

3412
02:16:33,509 --> 02:16:29,440
so

3413
02:16:35,669 --> 02:16:33,519
but then you throw in richard dodie

3414
02:16:39,030 --> 02:16:35,679
into the mix and it could be anything

3415
02:16:42,150 --> 02:16:39,040
once again and although he may deny

3416
02:16:44,790 --> 02:16:42,160
any involvement with mj 12 which is fine

3417
02:16:47,270 --> 02:16:44,800
i i don't know what to believe but he is

3418
02:16:50,070 --> 02:16:47,280
certainly right to me right at the

3419
02:16:51,589 --> 02:16:50,080
center of mj 12 once again

3420
02:16:53,110 --> 02:16:51,599
yeah he was

3421
02:16:56,469 --> 02:16:53,120
i i think

3422
02:16:57,830 --> 02:16:56,479
the the paper trail shows that

3423
02:17:00,870 --> 02:16:57,840
uh

3424
02:17:03,110 --> 02:17:00,880
richard doty bill moore and bob pratt

3425
02:17:05,429 --> 02:17:03,120
were discussing material that ended up

3426
02:17:07,509 --> 02:17:05,439
being in the mj-12 papers that we can

3427
02:17:09,990 --> 02:17:07,519
say for sure there's also one very

3428
02:17:12,150 --> 02:17:10,000
telling detail

3429
02:17:14,389 --> 02:17:12,160
which is that

3430
02:17:15,589 --> 02:17:14,399
in the mj-12 papers they

3431
02:17:19,349 --> 02:17:15,599
describe

3432
02:17:22,070 --> 02:17:19,359
the roswell crash as happening

3433
02:17:24,469 --> 02:17:22,080
i think it's 76 miles or something from

3434
02:17:26,709 --> 02:17:24,479
roswell itself and that's actually

3435
02:17:28,950 --> 02:17:26,719
whatever the number is it's an error

3436
02:17:30,790 --> 02:17:28,960
that is taken directly from bill moore's

3437
02:17:32,389 --> 02:17:30,800
book from william moore's book the

3438
02:17:35,190 --> 02:17:32,399
roswell incident

3439
02:17:38,549 --> 02:17:35,200
um so material from william moore's book

3440
02:17:40,790 --> 02:17:38,559
is being repeated in the mj-12

3441
02:17:43,750 --> 02:17:40,800
papers that is actually factually

3442
02:17:45,190 --> 02:17:43,760
incorrect i had a guest on the show

3443
02:17:47,270 --> 02:17:45,200
uh

3444
02:17:48,389 --> 02:17:47,280
a couple of weeks ago i i don't want to

3445
02:17:50,309 --> 02:17:48,399
say who

3446
02:17:53,030 --> 02:17:50,319
uh specifically who said this but i

3447
02:17:56,870 --> 02:17:53,040
asked him on the air

3448
02:17:59,509 --> 02:17:56,880
who was the creator of the mj12

3449
02:18:02,070 --> 02:17:59,519
documents i wanted to know who did the

3450
02:18:03,589 --> 02:18:02,080
typing whose fingers were on the

3451
02:18:05,270 --> 02:18:03,599
typewriter

3452
02:18:07,509 --> 02:18:05,280
that did this

3453
02:18:09,669 --> 02:18:07,519
and he you know

3454
02:18:10,469 --> 02:18:09,679
in a roundabout way suggested that it

3455
02:18:13,429 --> 02:18:10,479
was

3456
02:18:15,990 --> 02:18:13,439
uh bill moore doing the typing with

3457
02:18:17,990 --> 02:18:16,000
dodie standing over his shoulder

3458
02:18:20,469 --> 02:18:18,000
you know instructing him what to type

3459
02:18:22,389 --> 02:18:20,479
but then bill uh then you're telling me

3460
02:18:25,030 --> 02:18:22,399
now that uh that dodie's saying

3461
02:18:26,870 --> 02:18:25,040
categorically he had nothing to do with

3462
02:18:27,910 --> 02:18:26,880
mj12 and i just don't know what to

3463
02:18:29,190 --> 02:18:27,920
believe

3464
02:18:30,870 --> 02:18:29,200
yeah well

3465
02:18:31,669 --> 02:18:30,880
doty did say that

3466
02:18:33,349 --> 02:18:31,679
but

3467
02:18:35,750 --> 02:18:33,359
i mean i think it was a lot of work the

3468
02:18:37,990 --> 02:18:35,760
mj-12 papers i mean it's a lot of typing

3469
02:18:40,790 --> 02:18:38,000
a hell of a lot of typing you know yeah

3470
02:18:42,469 --> 02:18:40,800
i am you know i equate it to

3471
02:18:44,549 --> 02:18:42,479
someone creating a

3472
02:18:45,669 --> 02:18:44,559
a scenario for dungeons and dragons or

3473
02:18:49,110 --> 02:18:45,679
something or

3474
02:18:50,950 --> 02:18:49,120
you know to um developing a myth us you

3475
02:18:55,669 --> 02:18:50,960
know george lucas creating the star wars

3476
02:18:57,669 --> 02:18:55,679
mythology j-i-r j-r-r tolkien developing

3477
02:18:59,910 --> 02:18:57,679
lord the rings the hobbit this someone

3478
02:19:01,429 --> 02:18:59,920
sat down and created a mythos a

3479
02:19:04,549 --> 02:19:01,439
mythology that

3480
02:19:06,950 --> 02:19:04,559
has become you know one of the defining

3481
02:19:09,750 --> 02:19:06,960
belief systems of the late 20th century

3482
02:19:12,549 --> 02:19:09,760
you know and continuing through to the

3483
02:19:15,830 --> 02:19:12,559
early 21st century this was

3484
02:19:17,270 --> 02:19:15,840
just you know it's it's uh epic really

3485
02:19:20,230 --> 02:19:17,280
well

3486
02:19:21,190 --> 02:19:20,240
that's kind of a good comparison because

3487
02:19:22,709 --> 02:19:21,200
the

3488
02:19:23,589 --> 02:19:22,719
wording

3489
02:19:24,549 --> 02:19:23,599
the

3490
02:19:26,549 --> 02:19:24,559
uh

3491
02:19:29,669 --> 02:19:26,559
the military aspect the government

3492
02:19:30,870 --> 02:19:29,679
aspect the political aspect of the

3493
02:19:33,990 --> 02:19:30,880
verbiage

3494
02:19:36,389 --> 02:19:34,000
and how all of the mj-12 documents are

3495
02:19:40,309 --> 02:19:36,399
presented in a government context in the

3496
02:19:44,549 --> 02:19:42,389
again i want to say the verbiage

3497
02:19:45,990 --> 02:19:44,559
that comes from a mindset from somebody

3498
02:19:47,990 --> 02:19:46,000
that is

3499
02:19:49,429 --> 02:19:48,000
is involved in the military and that's

3500
02:19:51,990 --> 02:19:49,439
where you bring in dodie into the

3501
02:19:54,950 --> 02:19:52,000
picture and that goes with the stuff

3502
02:19:57,429 --> 02:19:54,960
that was fed to benowitz this uh

3503
02:19:59,590 --> 02:19:57,439
uh as far as um

3504
02:20:03,349 --> 02:19:59,600
uh well and serpo

3505
02:20:06,309 --> 02:20:03,359
and mj-12 they all come from a certain

3506
02:20:10,150 --> 02:20:06,319
mindset that that you are able to speak

3507
02:20:11,910 --> 02:20:10,160
in government military speak

3508
02:20:14,469 --> 02:20:11,920
you know what i mean and

3509
02:20:16,469 --> 02:20:14,479
and it just keeps coming back to dodie i

3510
02:20:18,389 --> 02:20:16,479
would love to get him on this show

3511
02:20:19,910 --> 02:20:18,399
love to get him on the show

3512
02:20:20,790 --> 02:20:19,920
so um

3513
02:20:23,510 --> 02:20:20,800
um

3514
02:20:24,469 --> 02:20:23,520
before we move on

3515
02:20:25,670 --> 02:20:24,479
uh

3516
02:20:29,190 --> 02:20:25,680
have you guys

3517
02:20:31,830 --> 02:20:29,200
ever seen anything you can't explain

3518
02:20:35,429 --> 02:20:31,840
up in the sky

3519
02:20:37,590 --> 02:20:35,439
who's going first i certainly have um

3520
02:20:39,349 --> 02:20:37,600
and i talk about it it opens the book

3521
02:20:42,710 --> 02:20:39,359
mirageman actually but

3522
02:20:46,790 --> 02:20:42,720
back in 95 myself and two friends were

3523
02:20:47,750 --> 02:20:46,800
on a road trip across the states and

3524
02:20:49,270 --> 02:20:47,760
um

3525
02:20:50,630 --> 02:20:49,280
it was on the

3526
02:20:51,349 --> 02:20:50,640
western

3527
02:20:53,910 --> 02:20:51,359
uh

3528
02:20:57,190 --> 02:20:53,920
edge of yosemite national park and to

3529
02:20:58,950 --> 02:20:57,200
cut a long story short

3530
02:21:01,349 --> 02:20:58,960
we all saw and i was not the first

3531
02:21:02,790 --> 02:21:01,359
person to see them we saw consecutively

3532
02:21:04,070 --> 02:21:02,800
one after the other

3533
02:21:07,110 --> 02:21:04,080
three

3534
02:21:08,550 --> 02:21:07,120
very metallic looking very solid looking

3535
02:21:10,790 --> 02:21:08,560
silver spheres

3536
02:21:13,270 --> 02:21:10,800
past silently and

3537
02:21:15,110 --> 02:21:13,280
very deliberately right over our car

3538
02:21:18,150 --> 02:21:15,120
probably 50 feet up

3539
02:21:20,550 --> 02:21:18,160
and uh following exactly the same route

3540
02:21:22,070 --> 02:21:20,560
as each of them um

3541
02:21:24,070 --> 02:21:22,080
and we were

3542
02:21:27,270 --> 02:21:24,080
you know we all wondered what they were

3543
02:21:31,030 --> 02:21:27,990
we

3544
02:21:31,990 --> 02:21:31,040
have thrown stones at them and they

3545
02:21:33,030 --> 02:21:32,000
would have

3546
02:21:35,990 --> 02:21:33,040
pinged

3547
02:21:38,150 --> 02:21:36,000
um but the punchline let me just say was

3548
02:21:40,469 --> 02:21:38,160
that at the time i was reading

3549
02:21:42,550 --> 02:21:40,479
one of the more far far-out ufo books

3550
02:21:45,190 --> 02:21:42,560
ever published called into the fringe by

3551
02:21:45,990 --> 02:21:45,200
a woman called carla turner but in the

3552
02:21:48,950 --> 02:21:46,000
book

3553
02:21:51,270 --> 02:21:48,960
she talks repeatedly about these uh

3554
02:21:54,150 --> 02:21:51,280
silver spherical

3555
02:21:57,349 --> 02:21:54,160
craft that hover over her house and she

3556
02:22:00,230 --> 02:21:57,359
calls them soul recycling

3557
02:22:03,110 --> 02:22:00,240
machines how big were they

3558
02:22:04,630 --> 02:22:03,120
i couldn't i would guess not huge i

3559
02:22:05,590 --> 02:22:04,640
would guess

3560
02:22:08,630 --> 02:22:05,600
maybe

3561
02:22:11,510 --> 02:22:08,640
between five and ten feet across oh

3562
02:22:13,750 --> 02:22:11,520
really yeah relatively small how much

3563
02:22:14,870 --> 02:22:13,760
time in between each one when they

3564
02:22:16,630 --> 02:22:14,880
passed

3565
02:22:19,349 --> 02:22:16,640
um

3566
02:22:23,510 --> 02:22:19,359
they were going relatively slowly so we

3567
02:22:25,670 --> 02:22:23,520
were watching each one for probably

3568
02:22:27,750 --> 02:22:25,680
three four or five minutes as they we

3569
02:22:30,469 --> 02:22:27,760
saw them come towards us then just pass

3570
02:22:32,309 --> 02:22:30,479
over us and then there was probably

3571
02:22:34,389 --> 02:22:32,319
uh another

3572
02:22:36,710 --> 02:22:34,399
three or four minutes between each

3573
02:22:37,670 --> 02:22:36,720
each one as they went over make any

3574
02:22:40,630 --> 02:22:37,680
sound

3575
02:22:42,870 --> 02:22:40,640
no silent uh but very directed they

3576
02:22:44,950 --> 02:22:42,880
weren't floating they weren't so being

3577
02:22:46,950 --> 02:22:44,960
blown in the wind they were very much

3578
02:22:49,190 --> 02:22:46,960
following a set trajectory they followed

3579
02:22:51,590 --> 02:22:49,200
the exact same path and the crucial

3580
02:22:53,590 --> 02:22:51,600
thing was there was a kind of rocky

3581
02:22:54,870 --> 02:22:53,600
bluff behind us and when they approached

3582
02:22:57,110 --> 02:22:54,880
the bluff

3583
02:22:59,270 --> 02:22:57,120
they kind of stopped and then at the

3584
02:23:01,510 --> 02:22:59,280
same distance from the bluff they kind

3585
02:23:04,389 --> 02:23:01,520
of rose up and then went over it and

3586
02:23:05,750 --> 02:23:04,399
continued did you ever see all three at

3587
02:23:06,950 --> 02:23:05,760
the same time

3588
02:23:08,950 --> 02:23:06,960
we saw

3589
02:23:11,190 --> 02:23:08,960
okay no the first one

3590
02:23:13,190 --> 02:23:11,200
uh i saw separately actually sorry i'm

3591
02:23:15,990 --> 02:23:13,200
slightly wrong there the first one i saw

3592
02:23:17,990 --> 02:23:16,000
separately in some woods earlier

3593
02:23:20,630 --> 02:23:18,000
just hovering off the ground and then

3594
02:23:22,309 --> 02:23:20,640
maybe half an hour later we saw the two

3595
02:23:24,309 --> 02:23:22,319
of them but they were what

3596
02:23:25,670 --> 02:23:24,319
separately one at a time following the

3597
02:23:28,230 --> 02:23:25,680
same path

3598
02:23:29,429 --> 02:23:28,240
uh over our car so it wasn't the same

3599
02:23:33,910 --> 02:23:29,439
craft then

3600
02:23:35,429 --> 02:23:33,920
no absolutely not no it was uh

3601
02:23:37,750 --> 02:23:35,439
certainly two of them were

3602
02:23:39,190 --> 02:23:37,760
unquestionably separate one of them may

3603
02:23:42,070 --> 02:23:39,200
have been the same but i don't think it

3604
02:23:44,150 --> 02:23:42,080
was because that was some distance away

3605
02:23:45,349 --> 02:23:44,160
so looking back at

3606
02:23:47,510 --> 02:23:45,359
that

3607
02:23:50,309 --> 02:23:47,520
event now

3608
02:23:51,750 --> 02:23:50,319
from this earth not from this earth what

3609
02:23:53,830 --> 02:23:51,760
do you think you saw

3610
02:23:55,030 --> 02:23:53,840
there was i mean at the time and now i

3611
02:23:56,710 --> 02:23:55,040
see

3612
02:23:57,510 --> 02:23:56,720
i don't understand

3613
02:23:58,389 --> 02:23:57,520
how

3614
02:24:02,710 --> 02:23:58,399
they

3615
02:24:04,469 --> 02:24:02,720
same time i have no reason to believe

3616
02:24:05,590 --> 02:24:04,479
they're anything other than

3617
02:24:08,710 --> 02:24:05,600
uh

3618
02:24:10,150 --> 02:24:08,720
some kind of advanced or experimental

3619
02:24:12,150 --> 02:24:10,160
technology and there are so many

3620
02:24:15,030 --> 02:24:12,160
accounts of similar things so roland

3621
02:24:16,790 --> 02:24:15,040
what was your experience um i haven't

3622
02:24:18,790 --> 02:24:16,800
had unfortunately i haven't had those

3623
02:24:19,910 --> 02:24:18,800
experiences myself

3624
02:24:21,590 --> 02:24:19,920
well

3625
02:24:24,469 --> 02:24:21,600
mine

3626
02:24:27,270 --> 02:24:24,479
i have uh i have three little things

3627
02:24:29,830 --> 02:24:27,280
that happen that uh

3628
02:24:31,110 --> 02:24:29,840
i just can't explain

3629
02:24:33,429 --> 02:24:31,120
now

3630
02:24:35,349 --> 02:24:33,439
with each of my experiences did i see

3631
02:24:38,150 --> 02:24:35,359
something with windows and somebody

3632
02:24:39,190 --> 02:24:38,160
waving outside you know no no no nothing

3633
02:24:41,830 --> 02:24:39,200
like that

3634
02:24:44,150 --> 02:24:41,840
but um i had an experience up in

3635
02:24:46,630 --> 02:24:44,160
monterey california uh that i

3636
02:24:47,670 --> 02:24:46,640
photographed i got one picture of

3637
02:24:53,190 --> 02:24:47,680
of uh

3638
02:24:54,309 --> 02:24:53,200
sky that was moving really really super

3639
02:24:56,389 --> 02:24:54,319
fast

3640
02:24:58,469 --> 02:24:56,399
uh at that altitude

3641
02:25:01,110 --> 02:24:58,479
and i'm guessing 50 000 feet or

3642
02:25:03,590 --> 02:25:01,120
something we're all used to seeing jets

3643
02:25:05,270 --> 02:25:03,600
move across the sky at a very slow clip

3644
02:25:07,190 --> 02:25:05,280
you know maybe with a

3645
02:25:09,750 --> 02:25:07,200
with a chemtrail behind you know some

3646
02:25:11,750 --> 02:25:09,760
exhaust you know uh you know whatever

3647
02:25:13,750 --> 02:25:11,760
but this was different it was up at that

3648
02:25:17,190 --> 02:25:13,760
height and it was just a black dot that

3649
02:25:21,590 --> 02:25:17,200
was moving across through the clouds

3650
02:25:26,150 --> 02:25:21,600
very very sorry this was 1996

3651
02:25:28,070 --> 02:25:26,160
97 ish 96 and uh i had a little film

3652
02:25:30,790 --> 02:25:28,080
camera with me i was taking pictures at

3653
02:25:33,030 --> 02:25:30,800
the beach up there with some friends and

3654
02:25:35,670 --> 02:25:33,040
and one of my friends pointed it out and

3655
02:25:39,030 --> 02:25:35,680
i looked up and saw it and grabbed one

3656
02:25:39,990 --> 02:25:39,040
picture by the time i wound the camera

3657
02:25:43,270 --> 02:25:40,000
uh

3658
02:25:46,469 --> 02:25:43,280
for another shot and looked again to see

3659
02:25:49,190 --> 02:25:46,479
where it was it stopped and then shot

3660
02:25:52,070 --> 02:25:49,200
straight up into space this was about

3661
02:25:53,990 --> 02:25:52,080
two or three o'clock in the afternoon

3662
02:25:56,070 --> 02:25:54,000
you know blue sky with some clouds you

3663
02:25:59,270 --> 02:25:56,080
know california coast kind of thing

3664
02:26:00,870 --> 02:25:59,280
but the way it shot up into space was

3665
02:26:02,710 --> 02:26:00,880
pretty trippy because i'd never seen

3666
02:26:04,070 --> 02:26:02,720
anything do quite that where it just

3667
02:26:05,910 --> 02:26:04,080
disappeared

3668
02:26:08,309 --> 02:26:05,920
and and just kept going into the

3669
02:26:09,270 --> 02:26:08,319
atmosphere until it was gone

3670
02:26:12,070 --> 02:26:09,280
and

3671
02:26:15,349 --> 02:26:12,080
that was mind-blowing but

3672
02:26:17,349 --> 02:26:15,359
uh i we kind of forgot about it and this

3673
02:26:18,550 --> 02:26:17,359
was what was weird

3674
02:26:21,030 --> 02:26:18,560
uh

3675
02:26:22,389 --> 02:26:21,040
we went over not only did we go on with

3676
02:26:23,910 --> 02:26:22,399
our day

3677
02:26:26,309 --> 02:26:23,920
you know and just kind of because it

3678
02:26:29,510 --> 02:26:26,319
just happened in a few seconds

3679
02:26:32,710 --> 02:26:29,520
we uh it was forgotten about and then

3680
02:26:35,190 --> 02:26:32,720
maybe six months later or a year later

3681
02:26:37,990 --> 02:26:35,200
six months later was a good time later i

3682
02:26:40,070 --> 02:26:38,000
had a whole fist full of 35 millimeter

3683
02:26:41,750 --> 02:26:40,080
film i had to get developed you know 10

3684
02:26:43,670 --> 02:26:41,760
20 rolls of film

3685
02:26:46,070 --> 02:26:43,680
that was building up in one of my

3686
02:26:46,950 --> 02:26:46,080
drawers so i grabbed it and i went up to

3687
02:26:51,830 --> 02:26:46,960
uh

3688
02:26:53,590 --> 02:26:51,840
place and and dropped off the film and i

3689
02:26:55,429 --> 02:26:53,600
went back and got it that afternoon and

3690
02:26:56,230 --> 02:26:55,439
came back home

3691
02:26:58,230 --> 02:26:56,240
and

3692
02:27:00,389 --> 02:26:58,240
i'm going through you know a whole stack

3693
02:27:02,790 --> 02:27:00,399
full of envelopes of photographs you

3694
02:27:04,790 --> 02:27:02,800
know you know we you know the drill

3695
02:27:07,750 --> 02:27:04,800
and and i come across these pictures of

3696
02:27:08,790 --> 02:27:07,760
clouds i was like what the what the what

3697
02:27:10,389 --> 02:27:08,800
is this

3698
02:27:11,670 --> 02:27:10,399
you know why would i take a picture of a

3699
02:27:13,510 --> 02:27:11,680
cloud

3700
02:27:16,950 --> 02:27:13,520
of a sky and i looked and there's that

3701
02:27:18,550 --> 02:27:16,960
little black dot i was like oh yeah

3702
02:27:21,590 --> 02:27:18,560
that's right

3703
02:27:23,110 --> 02:27:21,600
so i go grab my jeweler's loop um i'm a

3704
02:27:25,349 --> 02:27:23,120
big watch guy

3705
02:27:27,270 --> 02:27:25,359
so i've got a jeweler's loop of you know

3706
02:27:29,590 --> 02:27:27,280
i like to look at watches but that's

3707
02:27:31,670 --> 02:27:29,600
that's a whole nother fetish for another

3708
02:27:34,950 --> 02:27:31,680
time but i put the jeweler's loop on the

3709
02:27:37,349 --> 02:27:34,960
photograph and and you know what it was

3710
02:27:38,309 --> 02:27:37,359
it was a pyramid

3711
02:27:41,110 --> 02:27:38,319
um

3712
02:27:44,309 --> 02:27:41,120
yes black triangle uh no

3713
02:27:46,710 --> 02:27:44,319
no uh a natural pyramid pyramid you

3714
02:27:48,870 --> 02:27:46,720
could see the sun reflecting and it was

3715
02:27:51,910 --> 02:27:48,880
and the direction that it

3716
02:27:53,750 --> 02:27:51,920
that it was going in like the flat side

3717
02:27:55,910 --> 02:27:53,760
was going forward

3718
02:27:57,510 --> 02:27:55,920
and you could see the sun reflecting off

3719
02:27:59,590 --> 02:27:57,520
of it you could see the bottom of it

3720
02:28:02,790 --> 02:27:59,600
it's it's like a

3721
02:28:05,349 --> 02:28:02,800
a square with these with the with the

3722
02:28:06,790 --> 02:28:05,359
pyramid top it was it's bizarre it's a

3723
02:28:10,790 --> 02:28:06,800
bizarre picture

3724
02:28:11,590 --> 02:28:10,800
and but it's tiny the black dot is like

3725
02:28:13,990 --> 02:28:11,600
uh

3726
02:28:15,830 --> 02:28:14,000
the tiniest black dot you can put on a

3727
02:28:18,309 --> 02:28:15,840
piece of paper with the tip of a pen

3728
02:28:20,309 --> 02:28:18,319
that's how small it is but when you look

3729
02:28:22,150 --> 02:28:20,319
at it in the jeweler's loop then you can

3730
02:28:24,230 --> 02:28:22,160
see it and you can tell it's way up in

3731
02:28:25,270 --> 02:28:24,240
there it doesn't even make any sense

3732
02:28:27,349 --> 02:28:25,280
what it is

3733
02:28:30,150 --> 02:28:27,359
so that that was one

3734
02:28:32,870 --> 02:28:30,160
uh the second event was a very quick one

3735
02:28:33,910 --> 02:28:32,880
here in the valley a few years ago my

3736
02:28:36,070 --> 02:28:33,920
wife and i

3737
02:28:38,309 --> 02:28:36,080
just saw this flash of light

3738
02:28:42,870 --> 02:28:38,319
she saw it first come down the center of

3739
02:28:44,630 --> 02:28:42,880
our windshield and it was a a white ball

3740
02:28:45,830 --> 02:28:44,640
and it didn't have a fire trail or

3741
02:28:47,910 --> 02:28:45,840
anything it was just like a white ball

3742
02:28:50,230 --> 02:28:47,920
and just went down

3743
02:28:51,270 --> 02:28:50,240
right through the front of my

3744
02:28:54,309 --> 02:28:51,280
car

3745
02:28:56,870 --> 02:28:54,319
and landed in the city of van nuys in

3746
02:28:59,270 --> 02:28:56,880
front of us uh it just

3747
02:29:01,910 --> 02:28:59,280
like that just a streak of light and i

3748
02:29:03,510 --> 02:29:01,920
thought it was going to explode

3749
02:29:06,710 --> 02:29:03,520
and you know we were going to have this

3750
02:29:09,190 --> 02:29:06,720
huge explosion and but nothing happened

3751
02:29:11,750 --> 02:29:09,200
and so i immediately

3752
02:29:13,590 --> 02:29:11,760
called around and tried to follow up on

3753
02:29:15,590 --> 02:29:13,600
it for the next couple of weeks in the

3754
02:29:18,710 --> 02:29:15,600
paper and stuff on the internet nothing

3755
02:29:21,830 --> 02:29:18,720
nobody made any reports of any signings

3756
02:29:23,990 --> 02:29:21,840
and i i just know what i saw and it was

3757
02:29:25,670 --> 02:29:24,000
i it's kind of hard to judge how big it

3758
02:29:27,510 --> 02:29:25,680
was but the way it went into the

3759
02:29:30,230 --> 02:29:27,520
buildings in van nuys i'm guessing it

3760
02:29:31,590 --> 02:29:30,240
was you know 10 20 feet across

3761
02:29:34,870 --> 02:29:31,600
but

3762
02:29:37,670 --> 02:29:34,880
again nothing nothing i so i saw that i

3763
02:29:39,670 --> 02:29:37,680
can't explain it all i know is is what i

3764
02:29:41,510 --> 02:29:39,680
saw i can't really

3765
02:29:44,309 --> 02:29:41,520
uh say anything and then the other thing

3766
02:29:46,469 --> 02:29:44,319
was uh uh last year

3767
02:29:48,389 --> 02:29:46,479
um here in burbank i was at a car

3768
02:29:51,030 --> 02:29:48,399
dealership and we watched this thing go

3769
02:29:53,349 --> 02:29:51,040
across the sky spinning

3770
02:29:55,429 --> 02:29:53,359
way up in the atmosphere i suspect it

3771
02:29:56,550 --> 02:29:55,439
was a maybe some type of defense

3772
02:29:58,870 --> 02:29:56,560
satellite

3773
02:30:01,110 --> 02:29:58,880
but you could see it you know whatever

3774
02:30:04,150 --> 02:30:01,120
100 000 feet up way up in the atmosphere

3775
02:30:05,750 --> 02:30:04,160
moving across then stop right above us

3776
02:30:08,150 --> 02:30:05,760
and it was spinning you could see the

3777
02:30:11,510 --> 02:30:08,160
sun reflecting off of it and then it

3778
02:30:13,510 --> 02:30:11,520
slowly very slowly it took 20 30 minutes

3779
02:30:16,150 --> 02:30:13,520
for this whole event to

3780
02:30:18,790 --> 02:30:16,160
to finish and then slowly went up and

3781
02:30:21,670 --> 02:30:18,800
disappeared up into uh up into the

3782
02:30:22,870 --> 02:30:21,680
atmosphere so that i don't know that i

3783
02:30:25,510 --> 02:30:22,880
kind of think it was some kind of

3784
02:30:27,349 --> 02:30:25,520
satellite that was being positioned over

3785
02:30:28,950 --> 02:30:27,359
because it was a clear blue sky in the

3786
02:30:31,030 --> 02:30:28,960
middle of the afternoon

3787
02:30:34,550 --> 02:30:31,040
you were able to see it but it was funny

3788
02:30:37,429 --> 02:30:34,560
to see it just move across the sky stop

3789
02:30:39,429 --> 02:30:37,439
took forever by the way and then

3790
02:30:41,750 --> 02:30:39,439
slowly disappeared and went straight up

3791
02:30:43,990 --> 02:30:41,760
have you ever been out to edwards air

3792
02:30:45,349 --> 02:30:44,000
force base all the time if you

3793
02:30:46,230 --> 02:30:45,359
stay out there at night you'll see all

3794
02:30:48,630 --> 02:30:46,240
sorts

3795
02:30:51,110 --> 02:30:48,640
you know i have uh

3796
02:30:54,710 --> 02:30:51,120
years ago oh so what i wanted to say was

3797
02:30:57,190 --> 02:30:54,720
this the event that i saw up in monterey

3798
02:30:57,910 --> 02:30:57,200
i didn't tell i was so embarrassed about

3799
02:31:00,309 --> 02:30:57,920
it

3800
02:31:01,510 --> 02:31:00,319
i had a photograph right i had a

3801
02:31:03,990 --> 02:31:01,520
photograph

3802
02:31:06,389 --> 02:31:04,000
but i didn't i didn't want anybody to

3803
02:31:08,870 --> 02:31:06,399
think anything strange so i never told

3804
02:31:11,190 --> 02:31:08,880
anybody i never told anybody i told my

3805
02:31:13,190 --> 02:31:11,200
landlord i showed him the picture

3806
02:31:16,870 --> 02:31:13,200
and i might have

3807
02:31:19,030 --> 02:31:16,880
told maybe two people of the story until

3808
02:31:21,590 --> 02:31:19,040
last year when i had steve marillo of

3809
02:31:24,790 --> 02:31:21,600
mufon and you powers on the program

3810
02:31:27,190 --> 02:31:24,800
uh i told him the story but people just

3811
02:31:28,950 --> 02:31:27,200
don't talk and they don't want to they

3812
02:31:35,590 --> 02:31:28,960
don't want to

3813
02:31:37,030 --> 02:31:35,600
um and they don't know if what they're

3814
02:31:39,910 --> 02:31:37,040
dealing with is part of their

3815
02:31:43,110 --> 02:31:39,920
imagination or not they don't know

3816
02:31:47,190 --> 02:31:43,120
and so people just don't talk and and i

3817
02:31:49,910 --> 02:31:47,200
i know that because i didn't

3818
02:31:51,590 --> 02:31:49,920
you know and and like with you mark are

3819
02:31:53,270 --> 02:31:51,600
you gonna run around in the streets

3820
02:31:54,469 --> 02:31:53,280
telling people that you're seeing silver

3821
02:31:56,950 --> 02:31:54,479
balls

3822
02:31:59,349 --> 02:31:56,960
i did put it in my book but hey

3823
02:32:00,870 --> 02:31:59,359
yeah okay yeah but before your book well

3824
02:32:02,550 --> 02:32:00,880
look i'm talking about that i didn't

3825
02:32:04,630 --> 02:32:02,560
talk to you yeah that's exactly that's

3826
02:32:06,230 --> 02:32:04,640
what i'm saying and you know now

3827
02:32:08,230 --> 02:32:06,240
i don't know how many people know my

3828
02:32:09,990 --> 02:32:08,240
story now i've told it enough and it's

3829
02:32:12,870 --> 02:32:10,000
in your book people know it but before

3830
02:32:14,469 --> 02:32:12,880
you put it into you know pen to paper

3831
02:32:16,630 --> 02:32:14,479
how many people did you tell about that

3832
02:32:18,790 --> 02:32:16,640
event besides you and your friends

3833
02:32:21,190 --> 02:32:18,800
yeah yeah i've got some pictures of me

3834
02:32:23,429 --> 02:32:21,200
when they first revealed

3835
02:32:25,190 --> 02:32:23,439
the stealth fighter when it was revealed

3836
02:32:28,150 --> 02:32:25,200
i went to an air show

3837
02:32:30,630 --> 02:32:28,160
where they had one on display oh my gosh

3838
02:32:32,870 --> 02:32:30,640
i got to think about this uh

3839
02:32:35,670 --> 02:32:32,880
early 90s somewhere in there right after

3840
02:32:37,510 --> 02:32:35,680
the gulf war a few things that i came

3841
02:32:39,590 --> 02:32:37,520
away from that experience number one

3842
02:32:43,110 --> 02:32:39,600
it's very small that is not a big

3843
02:32:44,469 --> 02:32:43,120
airplane that is a tiny little cruiser

3844
02:32:46,550 --> 02:32:44,479
you know it's like a

3845
02:32:48,230 --> 02:32:46,560
it's like a corvette compared to a

3846
02:32:50,630 --> 02:32:48,240
greyhound bus you know it's two

3847
02:32:52,710 --> 02:32:50,640
different things it's a very small plane

3848
02:32:54,790 --> 02:32:52,720
uh the wing probably comes up to your

3849
02:32:59,190 --> 02:32:54,800
waist you know or there about you know

3850
02:33:02,150 --> 02:32:59,200
it's not it's not a big aircraft second

3851
02:33:04,710 --> 02:33:02,160
it doesn't look like it should be able

3852
02:33:07,190 --> 02:33:04,720
to fly we know that now we were very

3853
02:33:09,510 --> 02:33:07,200
familiar with it but back then

3854
02:33:11,670 --> 02:33:09,520
looking at it it looks like it shouldn't

3855
02:33:12,790 --> 02:33:11,680
it shouldn't be able to fly that was my

3856
02:33:13,830 --> 02:33:12,800
impression

3857
02:33:16,550 --> 02:33:13,840
third

3858
02:33:19,510 --> 02:33:16,560
it looked like a flying saucer to me

3859
02:33:21,270 --> 02:33:19,520
yeah when you stood at certain angles in

3860
02:33:22,870 --> 02:33:21,280
real life forget about photographs and

3861
02:33:25,270 --> 02:33:22,880
what you see in magazines but when you

3862
02:33:27,830 --> 02:33:25,280
stand right next to it it just looks

3863
02:33:29,830 --> 02:33:27,840
like this weird pyramid

3864
02:33:31,670 --> 02:33:29,840
black thing sitting out there

3865
02:33:34,870 --> 02:33:31,680
so up in the sky

3866
02:33:35,750 --> 02:33:34,880
flying around area 51 or edwards out

3867
02:33:37,349 --> 02:33:35,760
here

3868
02:33:38,950 --> 02:33:37,359
at certain times of the day or night

3869
02:33:41,110 --> 02:33:38,960
depending on the angle are you don't

3870
02:33:42,790 --> 02:33:41,120
know what you're looking at

3871
02:33:45,030 --> 02:33:42,800
the last thing you're looking at is a

3872
02:33:47,190 --> 02:33:45,040
plane that's for sure

3873
02:33:49,670 --> 02:33:47,200
there's an amazing photograph

3874
02:33:52,790 --> 02:33:49,680
it's up on the web that i've

3875
02:33:55,349 --> 02:33:52,800
seen of an early prototype stealth in

3876
02:33:57,670 --> 02:33:55,359
its hanger with kind of guys with

3877
02:34:00,150 --> 02:33:57,680
headgear and glasses and clipboards

3878
02:34:02,230 --> 02:34:00,160
standing around it and if if you pass

3879
02:34:04,630 --> 02:34:02,240
that off to someone as a you know a

3880
02:34:06,309 --> 02:34:04,640
captured extraterrestrial spacecraft you

3881
02:34:07,910 --> 02:34:06,319
would absolutely

3882
02:34:09,750 --> 02:34:07,920
believe them you know it looks like

3883
02:34:11,750 --> 02:34:09,760
something from a movie set that's

3884
02:34:13,830 --> 02:34:11,760
amazing yeah there's no question about

3885
02:34:16,950 --> 02:34:13,840
it when i was taking pictures of the

3886
02:34:18,309 --> 02:34:16,960
stealth and i'm now uh i want you to

3887
02:34:19,990 --> 02:34:18,319
understand that when i took these

3888
02:34:22,469 --> 02:34:20,000
pictures i was

3889
02:34:24,389 --> 02:34:22,479
able to touch the craft i could reach

3890
02:34:26,070 --> 02:34:24,399
out and touch it i was that close so i

3891
02:34:28,389 --> 02:34:26,080
took all of these pictures underneath

3892
02:34:32,150 --> 02:34:28,399
from the side from the front i probably

3893
02:34:34,469 --> 02:34:32,160
took 20. and but i i took some and when

3894
02:34:36,870 --> 02:34:34,479
you look at these from the front from

3895
02:34:37,910 --> 02:34:36,880
with the cockpit and and the way that it

3896
02:34:43,110 --> 02:34:37,920
looks

3897
02:34:45,030 --> 02:34:43,120
so i can't imagine if i would have saw

3898
02:34:47,030 --> 02:34:45,040
that flying around and snapped some

3899
02:34:47,910 --> 02:34:47,040
pictures at night

3900
02:34:49,910 --> 02:34:47,920
you know

3901
02:34:51,910 --> 02:34:49,920
yeah you could you could definitely see

3902
02:34:54,150 --> 02:34:51,920
the black triangle tie in there i know

3903
02:34:56,309 --> 02:34:54,160
there's people listening right now that

3904
02:34:57,110 --> 02:34:56,319
are going to say no jimmy you know but

3905
02:34:59,429 --> 02:34:57,120
no

3906
02:35:00,550 --> 02:34:59,439
it uh it definitely definitely could

3907
02:35:03,190 --> 02:35:00,560
have been foreign same thing with the

3908
02:35:07,349 --> 02:35:03,200
sr-71 too if you can imagine that flying

3909
02:35:08,389 --> 02:35:07,359
around uh do you think uh looking back

3910
02:35:11,110 --> 02:35:08,399
now

3911
02:35:13,590 --> 02:35:11,120
that the aviary was

3912
02:35:15,750 --> 02:35:13,600
an intentional disinformation campaign

3913
02:35:18,309 --> 02:35:15,760
uh put on by dodie

3914
02:35:21,510 --> 02:35:18,319
no not at all i think

3915
02:35:22,870 --> 02:35:21,520
the the avery was a genuine

3916
02:35:25,110 --> 02:35:22,880
group of

3917
02:35:28,230 --> 02:35:25,120
people some of whom had

3918
02:35:31,670 --> 02:35:28,240
very serious kind of roles within

3919
02:35:34,309 --> 02:35:31,680
the intelligence and the military

3920
02:35:39,510 --> 02:35:37,110
culture or apparatus who were just

3921
02:35:41,429 --> 02:35:39,520
really interested in ufos who were

3922
02:35:43,190 --> 02:35:41,439
people like us who wanted to get to the

3923
02:35:44,150 --> 02:35:43,200
bottom of the story but just happened to

3924
02:35:46,389 --> 02:35:44,160
have

3925
02:35:50,309 --> 02:35:46,399
very high security clearances and to

3926
02:35:53,429 --> 02:35:50,319
work for the cia or the dia or the navy

3927
02:35:54,870 --> 02:35:53,439
or the air force um well okay then i i

3928
02:35:57,110 --> 02:35:54,880
have to ask you an uncomfortable

3929
02:35:59,670 --> 02:35:57,120
question then and and please i'm not

3930
02:36:01,990 --> 02:35:59,680
pinning you against the wall but i am

3931
02:36:04,710 --> 02:36:02,000
pinning you against the wall

3932
02:36:06,309 --> 02:36:04,720
dodie was falcon

3933
02:36:07,270 --> 02:36:06,319
um

3934
02:36:08,870 --> 02:36:07,280
maybe

3935
02:36:09,750 --> 02:36:08,880
we don't know

3936
02:36:10,550 --> 02:36:09,760
okay

3937
02:36:12,389 --> 02:36:10,560
wow

3938
02:36:14,230 --> 02:36:12,399
i'm probably not actually i think

3939
02:36:15,429 --> 02:36:14,240
someone else

3940
02:36:18,070 --> 02:36:15,439
was i think

3941
02:36:19,750 --> 02:36:18,080
i i i didn't think bishop doesn't agree

3942
02:36:20,870 --> 02:36:19,760
with this but i think it was

3943
02:36:23,670 --> 02:36:20,880
probably

3944
02:36:24,550 --> 02:36:23,680
barry hennessey who headed the stealth

3945
02:36:27,510 --> 02:36:24,560
uh

3946
02:36:30,630 --> 02:36:27,520
stealth security program but well

3947
02:36:34,870 --> 02:36:30,640
okay i say dodie was falcon

3948
02:36:36,950 --> 02:36:34,880
so but if it was if it was barry

3949
02:36:38,950 --> 02:36:36,960
it's kind of the same thing

3950
02:36:41,910 --> 02:36:38,960
yeah same same organization same

3951
02:36:43,910 --> 02:36:41,920
organization so again i'm going to pin

3952
02:36:46,309 --> 02:36:43,920
you against the wall how can you

3953
02:36:48,830 --> 02:36:46,319
how can you come to that conclusion

3954
02:36:51,270 --> 02:36:48,840
that it wasn't disinformation or

3955
02:36:52,710 --> 02:36:51,280
government sponsored or a government

3956
02:36:54,550 --> 02:36:52,720
idea

3957
02:36:55,429 --> 02:36:54,560
you know

3958
02:36:58,070 --> 02:36:55,439
they were

3959
02:37:00,070 --> 02:36:58,080
because the i no i i think

3960
02:37:01,910 --> 02:37:00,080
that's two separate things the the ovary

3961
02:37:02,710 --> 02:37:01,920
weren't creating the disinformation they

3962
02:37:04,630 --> 02:37:02,720
were

3963
02:37:08,469 --> 02:37:04,640
trying to

3964
02:37:10,469 --> 02:37:08,479
truth to sift the truth from the

3965
02:37:12,630 --> 02:37:10,479
disinformation i think that was

3966
02:37:14,469 --> 02:37:12,640
they they were genuinely truth seekers i

3967
02:37:16,389 --> 02:37:14,479
think they really wanted to know what

3968
02:37:19,030 --> 02:37:16,399
was going on

3969
02:37:20,230 --> 02:37:19,040
but but how again

3970
02:37:22,070 --> 02:37:20,240
mark

3971
02:37:24,389 --> 02:37:22,080
i want you to get really uncomfortable

3972
02:37:26,950 --> 02:37:24,399
right now with how i'm trying to ask you

3973
02:37:30,389 --> 02:37:26,960
this question okay i'm sweating

3974
02:37:34,150 --> 02:37:30,399
which is if if if if it's dodie

3975
02:37:37,990 --> 02:37:34,160
or uh barry hennessy that is falcon

3976
02:37:40,790 --> 02:37:38,000
then what you're saying can't be true

3977
02:37:42,950 --> 02:37:40,800
um because well how can you have the

3978
02:37:45,910 --> 02:37:42,960
leaders of disinformation

3979
02:37:47,429 --> 02:37:45,920
seeking the questions of disinformation

3980
02:37:50,070 --> 02:37:47,439
because the name

3981
02:37:52,870 --> 02:37:50,080
one thing the names were attributed by

3982
02:37:55,510 --> 02:37:52,880
uh william moore and jamie chanderer and

3983
02:37:58,309 --> 02:37:55,520
so they weren't necessarily all working

3984
02:38:00,309 --> 02:37:58,319
together you know in unison the avery

3985
02:38:03,110 --> 02:38:00,319
they were just the different people who

3986
02:38:05,830 --> 02:38:03,120
were communicating with chandera and

3987
02:38:07,270 --> 02:38:05,840
more however a lot of them were also

3988
02:38:09,349 --> 02:38:07,280
talking to each other

3989
02:38:11,750 --> 02:38:09,359
but there was not they weren't organized

3990
02:38:12,710 --> 02:38:11,760
they weren't focused in any way other

3991
02:38:14,870 --> 02:38:12,720
than

3992
02:38:16,710 --> 02:38:14,880
sharing they were exchanging information

3993
02:38:17,990 --> 02:38:16,720
and sharing what they knew but they

3994
02:38:19,830 --> 02:38:18,000
weren't they didn't have a mission

3995
02:38:22,070 --> 02:38:19,840
beyond that i don't think

3996
02:38:23,670 --> 02:38:22,080
and i think people can have a

3997
02:38:26,469 --> 02:38:23,680
senior position within the government

3998
02:38:28,389 --> 02:38:26,479
security forces and yet also be minor

3999
02:38:30,070 --> 02:38:28,399
players in other aspects

4000
02:38:31,910 --> 02:38:30,080
you take someone like kit green who

4001
02:38:34,309 --> 02:38:31,920
people think because he has

4002
02:38:36,150 --> 02:38:34,319
a level of cia clearance he's actually

4003
02:38:38,389 --> 02:38:36,160
some sort of mastermind but i think he's

4004
02:38:41,429 --> 02:38:38,399
more likely you know a very

4005
02:38:43,030 --> 02:38:41,439
a minor player in many areas and may be

4006
02:38:45,190 --> 02:38:43,040
a major player and only a few and i

4007
02:38:47,429 --> 02:38:45,200
think there's these sort of multiple

4008
02:38:48,870 --> 02:38:47,439
roles that people play within the system

4009
02:38:51,110 --> 02:38:48,880
and

4010
02:38:52,790 --> 02:38:51,120
just like in the world outside the

4011
02:38:54,070 --> 02:38:52,800
military and security services there are

4012
02:38:55,670 --> 02:38:54,080
people who are believers the people who

4013
02:38:57,750 --> 02:38:55,680
don't know there's everything in between

4014
02:38:59,750 --> 02:38:57,760
so i think it's it's it's much more

4015
02:39:01,590 --> 02:38:59,760
multi-layered and complex than people

4016
02:39:03,270 --> 02:39:01,600
like to think and the information within

4017
02:39:05,910 --> 02:39:03,280
those worlds is so

4018
02:39:07,990 --> 02:39:05,920
intensely compartmentalized that's what

4019
02:39:09,670 --> 02:39:08,000
they were trying to do was to share the

4020
02:39:10,469 --> 02:39:09,680
little bits of the puzzle that they each

4021
02:39:11,590 --> 02:39:10,479
had

4022
02:39:12,550 --> 02:39:11,600
which

4023
02:39:15,110 --> 02:39:12,560
you know depending on your

4024
02:39:16,630 --> 02:39:15,120
specialization depending on your role

4025
02:39:17,910 --> 02:39:16,640
very specific role within the

4026
02:39:19,590 --> 02:39:17,920
organization

4027
02:39:21,830 --> 02:39:19,600
you were employed by you know you would

4028
02:39:23,429 --> 02:39:21,840
have tiny bits of the puzzle that

4029
02:39:24,630 --> 02:39:23,439
that they would hope to build a bigger

4030
02:39:26,389 --> 02:39:24,640
picture from

4031
02:39:29,990 --> 02:39:26,399
have you guys read

4032
02:39:33,190 --> 02:39:30,000
uh the training for a new generation of

4033
02:39:37,270 --> 02:39:33,200
uh online covert operations the uh

4034
02:39:39,110 --> 02:39:37,280
powerpoint presentation that snowden has

4035
02:39:40,790 --> 02:39:39,120
has has leaks

4036
02:39:41,670 --> 02:39:40,800
i've spent a lot of time with it i'm

4037
02:39:43,830 --> 02:39:41,680
very

4038
02:39:46,469 --> 02:39:43,840
familiar with it now yeah

4039
02:39:48,630 --> 02:39:46,479
okay so do you

4040
02:39:52,950 --> 02:39:48,640
uh and i'm so afraid of seeing those

4041
02:39:55,830 --> 02:39:52,960
words and those letters nsa

4042
02:39:57,190 --> 02:39:55,840
with with what what is going on today

4043
02:40:00,150 --> 02:39:57,200
i'm sure that they're listening to you

4044
02:40:01,910 --> 02:40:00,160
whether you say those letters or not

4045
02:40:03,190 --> 02:40:01,920
you're probably right

4046
02:40:05,030 --> 02:40:03,200
um

4047
02:40:08,550 --> 02:40:05,040
more freaky stuff has happened with this

4048
02:40:10,870 --> 02:40:08,560
show in the last uh four months than in

4049
02:40:12,790 --> 02:40:10,880
my entire life you know

4050
02:40:14,309 --> 02:40:12,800
there are no coincidences

4051
02:40:16,070 --> 02:40:14,319
so um

4052
02:40:19,190 --> 02:40:16,080
or maybe there are

4053
02:40:21,910 --> 02:40:19,200
you know i don't know but with uh

4054
02:40:23,990 --> 02:40:21,920
with the way that snowden has presented

4055
02:40:26,550 --> 02:40:24,000
this now i have uh

4056
02:40:29,030 --> 02:40:26,560
i've posted everything that uh has been

4057
02:40:32,630 --> 02:40:29,040
sent to me as it has been revealed

4058
02:40:34,870 --> 02:40:32,640
uh i have got uh the four

4059
02:40:37,030 --> 02:40:34,880
four out of the maybe 12 slides that are

4060
02:40:40,230 --> 02:40:37,040
probably relevant from the powerpoint

4061
02:40:41,429 --> 02:40:40,240
presentation are up on on my site

4062
02:40:42,790 --> 02:40:41,439
and

4063
02:40:48,150 --> 02:40:42,800
is this

4064
02:40:50,070 --> 02:40:48,160
of what has been going on with the past

4065
02:40:51,670 --> 02:40:50,080
in that now it directly involves the

4066
02:40:55,349 --> 02:40:51,680
internet or

4067
02:40:56,870 --> 02:40:55,359
uh is it is it something new

4068
02:41:01,429 --> 02:40:56,880
it's um

4069
02:41:02,389 --> 02:41:01,439
what this looks like to me is a

4070
02:41:05,510 --> 02:41:02,399
direct

4071
02:41:08,469 --> 02:41:05,520
continuation a successor to

4072
02:41:11,349 --> 02:41:08,479
the rand document that we discussed

4073
02:41:12,070 --> 02:41:11,359
earlier from 1950 about the exploitation

4074
02:41:14,469 --> 02:41:12,080
of

4075
02:41:17,910 --> 02:41:14,479
superstitions and folklore in

4076
02:41:21,309 --> 02:41:17,920
psychological warfare campaigns this is

4077
02:41:23,510 --> 02:41:21,319
almost the exact same presentation but

4078
02:41:26,790 --> 02:41:23,520
re-purposed for the internet age and

4079
02:41:29,270 --> 02:41:26,800
it's looking it's basically what

4080
02:41:32,790 --> 02:41:29,280
what this powerpoint is is a manual for

4081
02:41:35,190 --> 02:41:32,800
the mirage men as far as i can see um

4082
02:41:37,910 --> 02:41:35,200
it's explaining to

4083
02:41:39,030 --> 02:41:37,920
it's it's a training document explaining

4084
02:41:41,830 --> 02:41:39,040
to people

4085
02:41:43,510 --> 02:41:41,840
what the program will be to train them

4086
02:41:44,950 --> 02:41:43,520
to conduct exactly the kinds of

4087
02:41:47,429 --> 02:41:44,960
operations that

4088
02:41:50,309 --> 02:41:47,439
uh richard doty was trained in you know

4089
02:41:51,429 --> 02:41:50,319
back in in the late 70s early 80s

4090
02:41:56,230 --> 02:41:51,439
um

4091
02:41:58,550 --> 02:41:56,240
don't have the actual

4092
02:42:01,429 --> 02:41:58,560
text that or this the the the

4093
02:42:02,309 --> 02:42:01,439
presentation that goes with the slides

4094
02:42:04,950 --> 02:42:02,319
but

4095
02:42:07,750 --> 02:42:04,960
uh there are three sides of you know

4096
02:42:09,590 --> 02:42:07,760
classic ufos in there and

4097
02:42:11,110 --> 02:42:09,600
uh i actually think

4098
02:42:15,990 --> 02:42:11,120
their

4099
02:42:18,950 --> 02:42:16,000
not to say that we are using ufos to

4100
02:42:21,270 --> 02:42:18,960
deceive people their role is to show

4101
02:42:23,830 --> 02:42:21,280
how people can be deceived by the things

4102
02:42:26,630 --> 02:42:23,840
they see how you know how

4103
02:42:29,110 --> 02:42:26,640
ambiguity can be used

4104
02:42:32,070 --> 02:42:29,120
to bolster people's pre-existing beliefs

4105
02:42:33,270 --> 02:42:32,080
in this case about ufos because if you

4106
02:42:35,270 --> 02:42:33,280
look at them

4107
02:42:39,110 --> 02:42:35,280
and then the slide

4108
02:42:41,750 --> 02:42:39,120
following it is one of

4109
02:42:43,429 --> 02:42:41,760
a wagon wheel like an old style so 19th

4110
02:42:44,790 --> 02:42:43,439
century wagon wheel next to a

4111
02:42:47,110 --> 02:42:44,800
contemporary

4112
02:42:48,389 --> 02:42:47,120
car tire and then you have a

4113
02:42:50,469 --> 02:42:48,399
contemporary

4114
02:42:53,270 --> 02:42:50,479
you have an slr camera next to an iphone

4115
02:42:55,750 --> 02:42:53,280
i think it's the the sort of

4116
02:42:58,550 --> 02:42:55,760
uh stories something to do with the way

4117
02:43:01,830 --> 02:42:58,560
that technology has changed but peop the

4118
02:43:04,070 --> 02:43:01,840
way people see things hasn't is my

4119
02:43:06,710 --> 02:43:04,080
not what i read from it that's weird

4120
02:43:07,590 --> 02:43:06,720
because i got a different take okay from

4121
02:43:16,230 --> 02:43:07,600
that

4122
02:43:18,790 --> 02:43:16,240
which is just as valid as as anything is

4123
02:43:20,950 --> 02:43:18,800
it's kind of sure but i was looking at

4124
02:43:23,830 --> 02:43:20,960
it more about

4125
02:43:25,030 --> 02:43:23,840
what people were photographing with and

4126
02:43:27,190 --> 02:43:25,040
what they were

4127
02:43:30,230 --> 02:43:27,200
taking pictures of

4128
02:43:32,150 --> 02:43:30,240
and interpreting them in their own ways

4129
02:43:33,750 --> 02:43:32,160
that's the way i took the picture yeah

4130
02:43:35,429 --> 02:43:33,760
that's some that's not them not a

4131
02:43:37,590 --> 02:43:35,439
million miles from what i was saying

4132
02:43:39,429 --> 02:43:37,600
well you know i mean throwing a wagon

4133
02:43:40,950 --> 02:43:39,439
wheel up in the air and taking a picture

4134
02:43:43,830 --> 02:43:40,960
of it and

4135
02:43:45,670 --> 02:43:43,840
and and how that could be perceived

4136
02:43:48,790 --> 02:43:45,680
uh and then you have a modern digital

4137
02:43:49,429 --> 02:43:48,800
camera and how you can uh take pictures

4138
02:43:56,150 --> 02:43:49,439
of

4139
02:43:57,510 --> 02:43:56,160
it hit me i i understand the wagon wheel

4140
02:44:02,150 --> 02:43:57,520
to

4141
02:44:06,630 --> 02:44:02,160
makes sense

4142
02:44:08,790 --> 02:44:06,640
too as well wow now how do you

4143
02:44:12,150 --> 02:44:08,800
uh why do you think the

4144
02:44:15,349 --> 02:44:12,160
they had the uh the the one multiple

4145
02:44:17,349 --> 02:44:15,359
photograph of the four modern ufos

4146
02:44:19,670 --> 02:44:17,359
um i think i think what they're again

4147
02:44:21,510 --> 02:44:19,680
what they're trying to show

4148
02:44:23,750 --> 02:44:21,520
is um

4149
02:44:26,309 --> 02:44:23,760
just the way people can

4150
02:44:28,950 --> 02:44:26,319
see what they want to see in a abstract

4151
02:44:29,750 --> 02:44:28,960
image those four images which

4152
02:44:33,510 --> 02:44:29,760
are

4153
02:44:35,269 --> 02:44:33,520
from a very controversial mexican

4154
02:44:36,389 --> 02:44:35,279
ufo photographer

4155
02:44:38,070 --> 02:44:36,399
um

4156
02:44:41,190 --> 02:44:38,080
called uh

4157
02:44:42,309 --> 02:44:41,200
i think his name's arturo robles but

4158
02:44:44,070 --> 02:44:42,319
um

4159
02:44:46,389 --> 02:44:44,080
yeah we don't know what they are

4160
02:44:48,710 --> 02:44:46,399
the image before from

4161
02:44:51,349 --> 02:44:48,720
1950 is a well-known

4162
02:44:54,309 --> 02:44:51,359
uh hoaxed that's a faked image right and

4163
02:44:57,030 --> 02:44:54,319
the one afterwards is very clearly as a

4164
02:44:59,429 --> 02:44:57,040
girl of some sort flying over the ocean

4165
02:45:02,550 --> 02:44:59,439
that's kind of could be misinterpreted

4166
02:45:04,389 --> 02:45:02,560
as a as a disc craft so i think it's

4167
02:45:05,510 --> 02:45:04,399
really about

4168
02:45:07,750 --> 02:45:05,520
um

4169
02:45:09,030 --> 02:45:07,760
you know how people yeah like i said how

4170
02:45:10,710 --> 02:45:09,040
people

4171
02:45:12,950 --> 02:45:10,720
see what what it is they want to see and

4172
02:45:16,790 --> 02:45:12,960
there's actually a slide that says

4173
02:45:18,790 --> 02:45:16,800
that very same thing uh earlier on

4174
02:45:20,150 --> 02:45:18,800
that's basically saying it's

4175
02:45:22,389 --> 02:45:20,160
the section is about influence

4176
02:45:24,389 --> 02:45:22,399
operations people

4177
02:45:26,309 --> 02:45:24,399
um you know people

4178
02:45:28,150 --> 02:45:26,319
uh

4179
02:45:30,469 --> 02:45:28,160
see what they expect to see there's

4180
02:45:31,750 --> 02:45:30,479
there's what they call confirmation bias

4181
02:45:34,070 --> 02:45:31,760
the information

4182
02:45:36,070 --> 02:45:34,080
you're prevent presented with just

4183
02:45:36,870 --> 02:45:36,080
confirms your pre-existing

4184
02:45:39,110 --> 02:45:36,880
uh

4185
02:45:41,670 --> 02:45:39,120
beliefs or a pre-existing

4186
02:45:43,830 --> 02:45:41,680
mindset so i think that's the context

4187
02:45:45,429 --> 02:45:43,840
here okay so

4188
02:45:46,790 --> 02:45:45,439
but

4189
02:45:50,550 --> 02:45:46,800
why

4190
02:45:52,630 --> 02:45:50,560
when i posted uh those pictures and

4191
02:45:56,230 --> 02:45:52,640
announced that they were on the website

4192
02:45:58,230 --> 02:45:56,240
i said you know it it's one thing for

4193
02:46:01,429 --> 02:45:58,240
the government to have these pictures

4194
02:46:04,389 --> 02:46:01,439
but it's another thing for the nsa to

4195
02:46:05,269 --> 02:46:04,399
put those in a slide presentation

4196
02:46:07,429 --> 02:46:05,279
and

4197
02:46:09,590 --> 02:46:07,439
i i don't care what the subject matter

4198
02:46:11,670 --> 02:46:09,600
is in the photographs and you've

4199
02:46:13,830 --> 02:46:11,680
explained it perfectly

4200
02:46:15,030 --> 02:46:13,840
but why

4201
02:46:19,990 --> 02:46:15,040
why

4202
02:46:21,990 --> 02:46:20,000
are discussing

4203
02:46:24,389 --> 02:46:22,000
ufology

4204
02:46:26,070 --> 02:46:24,399
is the subject uh that they're

4205
02:46:28,150 --> 02:46:26,080
discussing is

4206
02:46:30,150 --> 02:46:28,160
is uh uh

4207
02:46:32,790 --> 02:46:30,160
lying to the public and how you can

4208
02:46:34,710 --> 02:46:32,800
deceive the public with with

4209
02:46:37,590 --> 02:46:34,720
you know how they perceive a photograph

4210
02:46:39,110 --> 02:46:37,600
and you can lead them down any path or

4211
02:46:43,429 --> 02:46:39,120
you know

4212
02:46:46,070 --> 02:46:43,439
the pictures in

4213
02:46:48,389 --> 02:46:46,080
that presentation why that's all i you

4214
02:46:49,590 --> 02:46:48,399
know and we'll never like like you said

4215
02:46:51,269 --> 02:46:49,600
we weren't there we don't know what the

4216
02:46:54,950 --> 02:46:51,279
text was we weren't

4217
02:46:57,830 --> 02:46:54,960
we weren't present but that that i'm i'm

4218
02:47:00,309 --> 02:46:57,840
very alarmed i mean why that's the big

4219
02:47:02,950 --> 02:47:00,319
question yeah the i think the why is

4220
02:47:04,630 --> 02:47:02,960
that they're a very good example of

4221
02:47:06,309 --> 02:47:04,640
the things that are discussed earlier in

4222
02:47:08,950 --> 02:47:06,319
the presentation for example i'm looking

4223
02:47:11,429 --> 02:47:08,960
right now at a slide uh

4224
02:47:12,630 --> 02:47:11,439
labeled gambits for deception

4225
02:47:16,469 --> 02:47:12,640
and

4226
02:47:18,830 --> 02:47:16,479
uh there's an important um

4227
02:47:22,550 --> 02:47:18,840
one of the strands and that is called

4228
02:47:25,750 --> 02:47:22,560
perception and they say

4229
02:47:27,349 --> 02:47:25,760
repackage and invent modify old cues and

4230
02:47:28,790 --> 02:47:27,359
create new cues

4231
02:47:31,030 --> 02:47:28,800
so

4232
02:47:34,469 --> 02:47:31,040
we could look at these three images of

4233
02:47:37,750 --> 02:47:34,479
the 1950s ufo that's an old queue

4234
02:47:38,950 --> 02:47:37,760
and the 2005 the four ufos

4235
02:47:41,830 --> 02:47:38,960
and the

4236
02:47:45,030 --> 02:47:41,840
the the uh gold flying over the water

4237
02:47:45,910 --> 02:47:45,040
maybe we can create new cues from there

4238
02:47:48,630 --> 02:47:45,920
um

4239
02:47:50,790 --> 02:47:48,640
i mean that i'm just riffing here but

4240
02:47:53,349 --> 02:47:50,800
you know there are there are multiple

4241
02:47:55,830 --> 02:47:53,359
reasons that these are just useful

4242
02:47:57,190 --> 02:47:55,840
examples of the ways in which you can

4243
02:47:58,950 --> 02:47:57,200
repurpose

4244
02:48:01,030 --> 02:47:58,960
this kind of material

4245
02:48:02,710 --> 02:48:01,040
um and the fact

4246
02:48:05,269 --> 02:48:02,720
while i'd like to say that the fact

4247
02:48:07,750 --> 02:48:05,279
there are three ufo pitches in the side

4248
02:48:09,269 --> 02:48:07,760
set you know proves the miragemen

4249
02:48:11,910 --> 02:48:09,279
hypothesis

4250
02:48:13,510 --> 02:48:11,920
it doesn't necessarily say that you know

4251
02:48:16,150 --> 02:48:13,520
they've been working within the ufo

4252
02:48:19,110 --> 02:48:16,160
field only that ufos are a good example

4253
02:48:22,150 --> 02:48:19,120
of the kind of deception

4254
02:48:23,750 --> 02:48:22,160
program or operations that they run

4255
02:48:24,790 --> 02:48:23,760
um

4256
02:48:26,710 --> 02:48:24,800
and

4257
02:48:28,550 --> 02:48:26,720
you know they use

4258
02:48:31,190 --> 02:48:28,560
the examples they're using mostly in the

4259
02:48:33,910 --> 02:48:31,200
slideshow are about magic about

4260
02:48:35,190 --> 02:48:33,920
stage magic and illusion which again is

4261
02:48:37,030 --> 02:48:35,200
just about

4262
02:48:39,429 --> 02:48:37,040
uh shaping

4263
02:48:40,950 --> 02:48:39,439
perception and controlling perception

4264
02:48:42,309 --> 02:48:40,960
actually you know what let's just take a

4265
02:48:44,950 --> 02:48:42,319
quick break

4266
02:48:47,349 --> 02:48:44,960
and uh uh we'll be right back

4267
02:48:48,710 --> 02:48:47,359
i'm live from london with mark

4268
02:48:50,710 --> 02:48:48,720
bilkington

4269
02:48:51,990 --> 02:48:50,720
roland denning their new documentary

4270
02:48:53,830 --> 02:48:52,000
mirage man

4271
02:48:55,510 --> 02:48:53,840
this is the dark matter radio network

4272
02:49:18,070 --> 02:48:55,520
paid to black i'm your host jimmy church

4273
02:49:18,080 --> 02:49:27,269
this is kjcr jimmychurchradio.com

4274
02:49:30,710 --> 02:49:29,349
hey this is from the vultures of queens

4275
02:50:23,670 --> 02:49:30,720
of the stone age you listen to

4276
02:50:28,070 --> 02:50:26,309
all right everybody welcome back kjcr

4277
02:50:31,030 --> 02:50:28,080
fade to black on the dark matter radio

4278
02:50:32,950 --> 02:50:31,040
network i'm your host jimmy church

4279
02:50:34,469 --> 02:50:32,960
shoot us some email jimmy jimmy

4280
02:50:36,790 --> 02:50:34,479
turtleradio.com

4281
02:50:38,150 --> 02:50:36,800
it's been a busy show today

4282
02:50:40,550 --> 02:50:38,160
and uh

4283
02:50:42,070 --> 02:50:40,560
follow us on twitter at j church radio

4284
02:50:45,429 --> 02:50:42,080
facebook

4285
02:50:47,670 --> 02:50:45,439
youtube kjcr jimmy church radio whatever

4286
02:50:49,670 --> 02:50:47,680
fade to black you guys know what to do

4287
02:50:52,870 --> 02:50:49,680
everything has jimmy or church or fade

4288
02:50:54,230 --> 02:50:52,880
to black in it go follow like subscribe

4289
02:50:56,790 --> 02:50:54,240
friend

4290
02:50:59,190 --> 02:50:56,800
and i would like to hear what everybody

4291
02:51:01,429 --> 02:50:59,200
has to say about tonight's show

4292
02:51:03,429 --> 02:51:01,439
i had a lot of fun with our good friends

4293
02:51:04,950 --> 02:51:03,439
over there in in london across the pond

4294
02:51:06,469 --> 02:51:04,960
mark in roland

4295
02:51:10,150 --> 02:51:06,479
now uh

4296
02:51:11,670 --> 02:51:10,160
just to wrap things up on the website

4297
02:51:14,630 --> 02:51:11,680
we have a player

4298
02:51:15,910 --> 02:51:14,640
that's uh been put up by your uh by your

4299
02:51:17,990 --> 02:51:15,920
distributor

4300
02:51:20,309 --> 02:51:18,000
and so i want everybody to go you can

4301
02:51:23,990 --> 02:51:20,319
see the trailer right there

4302
02:51:26,950 --> 02:51:24,000
you can i i believe guys you can rent as

4303
02:51:29,590 --> 02:51:26,960
well as purchase yeah you can order

4304
02:51:31,190 --> 02:51:29,600
pre-order it free orders on march 27 so

4305
02:51:33,030 --> 02:51:31,200
now you could get a discount i think if

4306
02:51:34,870 --> 02:51:33,040
you pre-ordered the rental okay very

4307
02:51:37,190 --> 02:51:34,880
good you can rent and download can't you

4308
02:51:39,510 --> 02:51:37,200
yeah okay um

4309
02:51:40,870 --> 02:51:39,520
now how

4310
02:51:44,710 --> 02:51:40,880
how has it

4311
02:51:49,030 --> 02:51:46,389
so far extremely well i mean we've

4312
02:51:50,870 --> 02:51:49,040
basically done festivals uh around the

4313
02:51:54,070 --> 02:51:50,880
world up to now and the reception has

4314
02:51:55,510 --> 02:51:54,080
been really good yeah so kind of

4315
02:51:58,070 --> 02:51:55,520
obviously we're very proud of the film

4316
02:52:00,150 --> 02:51:58,080
but we were we've been quite

4317
02:52:01,990 --> 02:52:00,160
thrilled and surprised at how well

4318
02:52:03,830 --> 02:52:02,000
received it's been from

4319
02:52:06,150 --> 02:52:03,840
and what's been what was very important

4320
02:52:08,230 --> 02:52:06,160
to us from the outset that

4321
02:52:10,950 --> 02:52:08,240
while the films are coming out from

4322
02:52:13,030 --> 02:52:10,960
within the ufo community

4323
02:52:16,230 --> 02:52:13,040
yeah we it was very important that it

4324
02:52:18,710 --> 02:52:16,240
would appeal to and be understood by

4325
02:52:21,269 --> 02:52:18,720
people both within that community

4326
02:52:23,110 --> 02:52:21,279
and also outside of it my favorite

4327
02:52:26,309 --> 02:52:23,120
response is actually where we showed it

4328
02:52:29,110 --> 02:52:26,319
at austin at the fantastic fest last

4329
02:52:32,790 --> 02:52:29,120
autumn yeah and we had one guy who used

4330
02:52:34,870 --> 02:52:32,800
to work for space command at norad

4331
02:52:37,030 --> 02:52:34,880
and he was like a techie guy there and

4332
02:52:40,150 --> 02:52:37,040
he just came out saying man i i just

4333
02:52:42,710 --> 02:52:40,160
love your film it's so you capture the

4334
02:52:45,429 --> 02:52:42,720
the experience of kind of being in the

4335
02:52:48,230 --> 02:52:45,439
middle of all this material so perfectly

4336
02:52:49,429 --> 02:52:48,240
and another guy where was another guy's

4337
02:52:51,110 --> 02:52:49,439
brother was

4338
02:52:53,910 --> 02:52:51,120
head of um

4339
02:52:57,190 --> 02:52:53,920
or he was involved with uh i can't

4340
02:52:58,550 --> 02:52:57,200
remember what but maybe um

4341
02:53:00,150 --> 02:52:58,560
programming films or something at

4342
02:53:01,670 --> 02:53:00,160
holloman air force base for the air

4343
02:53:03,190 --> 02:53:01,680
force guys there and he was like we've

4344
02:53:04,630 --> 02:53:03,200
got to get your film out to holloman

4345
02:53:06,550 --> 02:53:04,640
they'll love it and say this is just the

4346
02:53:08,710 --> 02:53:06,560
tip of the iceberg yeah if you knew what

4347
02:53:14,550 --> 02:53:08,720
was going on below that you know

4348
02:53:17,910 --> 02:53:16,389
the fact that we can you know the people

4349
02:53:22,230 --> 02:53:17,920
within the

4350
02:53:23,910 --> 02:53:22,240
the air force also can see

4351
02:53:26,230 --> 02:53:23,920
themselves in there i think that's

4352
02:53:28,070 --> 02:53:26,240
really great as well well the only sort

4353
02:53:29,349 --> 02:53:28,080
of negative comments or reactions were

4354
02:53:31,269 --> 02:53:29,359
on youtube of people who've seen the

4355
02:53:32,309 --> 02:53:31,279
trailer and dismissed as sort of

4356
02:53:34,230 --> 02:53:32,319
government

4357
02:53:36,230 --> 02:53:34,240
anti-ufo propaganda but they haven't

4358
02:53:39,670 --> 02:53:36,240
seen the movie so you know but we don't

4359
02:53:42,550 --> 02:53:39,680
take that seriously well try i get i get

4360
02:53:45,830 --> 02:53:42,560
three four five ten emails a day

4361
02:53:47,429 --> 02:53:45,840
that i am some disinformation guy yeah

4362
02:53:50,710 --> 02:53:47,439
that that i'm putting

4363
02:53:52,389 --> 02:53:50,720
whoa you all right you see um see they

4364
02:53:54,550 --> 02:53:52,399
know they know

4365
02:53:56,389 --> 02:53:54,560
they know they're listening

4366
02:53:59,349 --> 02:53:56,399
but but um

4367
02:54:02,070 --> 02:53:59,359
uh you know it's it's hilarious

4368
02:54:03,990 --> 02:54:02,080
for me now either i'm you know i'm the

4369
02:54:07,590 --> 02:54:04,000
greatest actor of all time or i don't

4370
02:54:09,510 --> 02:54:07,600
know myself or you know i'm some mk

4371
02:54:10,870 --> 02:54:09,520
ultra super soldier and i don't know

4372
02:54:13,590 --> 02:54:10,880
what i'm doing

4373
02:54:15,269 --> 02:54:13,600
it's possible but for somebody that that

4374
02:54:17,190 --> 02:54:15,279
doesn't know me

4375
02:54:19,750 --> 02:54:17,200
to to to

4376
02:54:22,389 --> 02:54:19,760
uh think that i'm part of the the the

4377
02:54:24,630 --> 02:54:22,399
campaign out there it's it's crazy oh we

4378
02:54:27,750 --> 02:54:24,640
get that too yes and it's just hilarious

4379
02:54:30,870 --> 02:54:28,710
now

4380
02:54:33,030 --> 02:54:30,880
would employ us but but here's the

4381
02:54:36,550 --> 02:54:33,040
million-dollar question

4382
02:54:39,349 --> 02:54:36,560
uh has anybody come up to you after this

4383
02:54:41,910 --> 02:54:39,359
and pulled you aside and whispered in

4384
02:54:42,870 --> 02:54:41,920
your ear i've got you know we we have to

4385
02:54:43,990 --> 02:54:42,880
talk

4386
02:54:45,990 --> 02:54:44,000
not yet

4387
02:54:49,990 --> 02:54:46,000
when the book came out i had a couple of

4388
02:54:52,150 --> 02:54:50,000
interesting emails from people uh

4389
02:54:54,150 --> 02:54:52,160
nothing's nothing really specific but

4390
02:54:55,990 --> 02:54:54,160
people just saying

4391
02:54:58,469 --> 02:54:56,000
uh giving me little

4392
02:55:00,630 --> 02:54:58,479
little tip bits of extra information

4393
02:55:03,190 --> 02:55:00,640
and saying you're on the right you know

4394
02:55:06,710 --> 02:55:03,200
keep keep on you're on the right trail

4395
02:55:08,550 --> 02:55:06,720
but uh i feel like i feel like mark i

4396
02:55:10,550 --> 02:55:08,560
feel like you're holding back

4397
02:55:13,910 --> 02:55:10,560
right now it was okay the thing the

4398
02:55:17,750 --> 02:55:13,920
specific thing which i think is crucial

4399
02:55:20,230 --> 02:55:17,760
was um to do with the infiltration of

4400
02:55:23,750 --> 02:55:20,240
the ufo community by

4401
02:55:25,750 --> 02:55:23,760
soviet uh undercover agents in the 1980s

4402
02:55:26,710 --> 02:55:25,760
that was essentially that was what it

4403
02:55:29,190 --> 02:55:26,720
was about

4404
02:55:31,830 --> 02:55:29,200
wow a lot of this material was

4405
02:55:35,190 --> 02:55:31,840
developed to try and flush identify them

4406
02:55:37,830 --> 02:55:35,200
and flush them out of the ufo community

4407
02:55:39,750 --> 02:55:37,840
were you able to follow up on any of it

4408
02:55:41,990 --> 02:55:39,760
no i mean that's just that was something

4409
02:55:43,349 --> 02:55:42,000
i discussed a little bit in the book and

4410
02:55:44,790 --> 02:55:43,359
there's no

4411
02:55:47,030 --> 02:55:44,800
you know there are no names there are no

4412
02:55:49,429 --> 02:55:47,040
details but that was a concern

4413
02:55:51,269 --> 02:55:49,439
the concern was that at the time of the

4414
02:55:55,030 --> 02:55:51,279
stealth program

4415
02:55:56,870 --> 02:55:55,040
uh the soviets were using ufo groups to

4416
02:55:59,830 --> 02:55:56,880
try and extract information about

4417
02:56:01,670 --> 02:55:59,840
stealth that's that's basically that's

4418
02:56:03,750 --> 02:56:01,680
that's the conclusion i draw in the book

4419
02:56:05,110 --> 02:56:03,760
and that was people just basically were

4420
02:56:07,110 --> 02:56:05,120
saying that's

4421
02:56:09,830 --> 02:56:07,120
you're more or less you've got the story

4422
02:56:12,469 --> 02:56:09,840
but have you guys been uh

4423
02:56:15,190 --> 02:56:12,479
have you been surveilled lately do you

4424
02:56:16,230 --> 02:56:15,200
feel uh any men in black knock on the

4425
02:56:18,389 --> 02:56:16,240
door

4426
02:56:19,110 --> 02:56:18,399
anything you know because it's being

4427
02:56:20,630 --> 02:56:19,120
seen

4428
02:56:22,230 --> 02:56:20,640
i mean that's what we've learned england

4429
02:56:24,070 --> 02:56:22,240
is the most surveilled country in the

4430
02:56:26,550 --> 02:56:24,080
world there's cameras everywhere we're

4431
02:56:29,670 --> 02:56:26,560
on tv all the time we have we have more

4432
02:56:31,429 --> 02:56:29,680
cctv cameras per head than any other

4433
02:56:34,389 --> 02:56:31,439
country in the world so we're used to

4434
02:56:37,429 --> 02:56:34,399
that feeling do you ever feel uh

4435
02:56:39,670 --> 02:56:37,439
uh well once you

4436
02:56:42,469 --> 02:56:39,680
you've already had the book out for four

4437
02:56:44,870 --> 02:56:42,479
years mark but i don't know if roland is

4438
02:56:45,910 --> 02:56:44,880
quite acclimated yet

4439
02:56:50,870 --> 02:56:45,920
to

4440
02:56:52,710 --> 02:56:50,880
once you start once you crack this you

4441
02:56:54,710 --> 02:56:52,720
know you crack this window just a little

4442
02:56:55,910 --> 02:56:54,720
bit you start to open you start to smell

4443
02:56:59,429 --> 02:56:55,920
the air

4444
02:57:01,269 --> 02:56:59,439
um it gets a little bit nutty and it

4445
02:57:03,510 --> 02:57:01,279
really does and

4446
02:57:06,550 --> 02:57:03,520
uh yeah roland you need to prepare

4447
02:57:09,670 --> 02:57:06,560
yourself and your family

4448
02:57:12,550 --> 02:57:09,680
we got the training program

4449
02:57:15,190 --> 02:57:12,560
i mean because it it it will happen it's

4450
02:57:16,070 --> 02:57:15,200
just it's just kind of funny and uh it

4451
02:57:18,790 --> 02:57:16,080
does

4452
02:57:20,710 --> 02:57:18,800
it's i can only speak for my experiences

4453
02:57:23,190 --> 02:57:20,720
here and i was warned way in advance i

4454
02:57:25,750 --> 02:57:23,200
just kind of laughed i before i did this

4455
02:57:29,110 --> 02:57:25,760
show uh for

4456
02:57:32,630 --> 02:57:29,120
2008 till 30 yeah i switched that's uh

4457
02:57:35,510 --> 02:57:32,640
six five years i was a sportscaster okay

4458
02:57:37,670 --> 02:57:35,520
i i retired from the music industry and

4459
02:57:38,870 --> 02:57:37,680
and uh went back to school came out of

4460
02:57:41,750 --> 02:57:38,880
school and

4461
02:57:43,910 --> 02:57:41,760
got into sports casting had a very

4462
02:57:46,469 --> 02:57:43,920
i mean not super successful but i

4463
02:57:50,150 --> 02:57:46,479
certainly had a large audience and and

4464
02:57:52,550 --> 02:57:50,160
had a great time doing it for for years

4465
02:57:53,670 --> 02:57:52,560
but in that five years of doing that

4466
02:57:55,910 --> 02:57:53,680
show

4467
02:57:58,550 --> 02:57:55,920
i cannot recall

4468
02:58:00,309 --> 02:57:58,560
my computers ever crashing my phone

4469
02:58:01,670 --> 02:58:00,319
sounding weird

4470
02:58:05,269 --> 02:58:01,680
um

4471
02:58:06,870 --> 02:58:05,279
cars people things

4472
02:58:09,030 --> 02:58:06,880
issues

4473
02:58:12,550 --> 02:58:09,040
not not nothing that was the the

4474
02:58:15,429 --> 02:58:12,560
smoothest well-oiled machine ever

4475
02:58:17,110 --> 02:58:15,439
and now since this show has started

4476
02:58:21,830 --> 02:58:17,120
it's something

4477
02:58:23,750 --> 02:58:21,840
every single day uh always weird things

4478
02:58:26,309 --> 02:58:23,760
going on

4479
02:58:28,550 --> 02:58:26,319
it comes with the territory it does it

4480
02:58:30,870 --> 02:58:28,560
and so roland you just be you know

4481
02:58:32,389 --> 02:58:30,880
roland's just like i can tell roland's a

4482
02:58:34,309 --> 02:58:32,399
very sensible guy

4483
02:58:36,950 --> 02:58:34,319
he's got an open mind but he's right now

4484
02:58:39,750 --> 02:58:36,960
he's just like okay church

4485
02:58:41,190 --> 02:58:39,760
all right okay well okay get back to me

4486
02:58:43,670 --> 02:58:41,200
in six months

4487
02:58:45,110 --> 02:58:43,680
okay i want to hear the story i want to

4488
02:58:46,389 --> 02:58:45,120
thank you guys for coming on i had a

4489
02:58:48,150 --> 02:58:46,399
great time

4490
02:58:50,710 --> 02:58:48,160
thank you it's been a pleasure it's been

4491
02:58:53,030 --> 02:58:50,720
great and uh i will talk to you after uh

4492
02:58:55,510 --> 02:58:53,040
the film comes out and uh love to get

4493
02:58:57,429 --> 02:58:55,520
you guys back on and we'll uh chat again

4494
02:59:00,710 --> 02:58:57,439
okay thank you very much thank you very

4495
02:59:04,150 --> 02:59:00,720
much you guys have a great day wow

4496
02:59:05,110 --> 02:59:04,160
roland denning mark pilkington live from

4497
02:59:06,630 --> 02:59:05,120
london

4498
02:59:09,110 --> 02:59:06,640
thank you

4499
02:59:11,349 --> 02:59:09,120
this has been fade to black

4500
02:59:13,349 --> 02:59:11,359
jimmy church on the dark matter radio

4501
02:59:15,429 --> 02:59:13,359
network we ran up against it did all

4502
02:59:16,469 --> 02:59:15,439
three hours tonight i did my best to get

4503
02:59:18,710 --> 02:59:16,479
out of here

4504
02:59:20,870 --> 02:59:18,720
coming up next night watch with todd

4505
02:59:22,710 --> 02:59:20,880
sheets special thanks to keith rowland

4506
02:59:23,830 --> 02:59:22,720
fade to black executive producers rita

4507
02:59:25,349 --> 02:59:23,840
comerian

4508
02:59:27,830 --> 02:59:25,359
show is produced by hilton j palmer

4509
02:59:30,710 --> 02:59:27,840
marty cover announcers are steve harder

4510
02:59:32,469 --> 02:59:30,720
and mark d kovar music by doug aldrich

4511
02:59:34,309 --> 02:59:32,479
you're listening to him right now fade

4512
02:59:36,230 --> 02:59:34,319
to black it's produced by kjcr in the

4513
02:59:38,389 --> 02:59:36,240
dark matter radio network see you

4514
02:59:48,469 --> 02:59:38,399
tomorrow night with mac maloney i'm